16ga.com ~ View topic - Need Expert Browning/FN Auto 5 Help Please!!

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

I guess I have not been here in a while...here is my 2 cents worth.

Cox, welcome to the obsolete gun owners club, glad to meet you.

This is a Grade 1 Standard Sixteen. The Sweet was never made in the old Graqde 1 and was not introduced till 1937. I don't have my reference material with me to confirm the year, the rest of this stuff I know from memory.

It left the factory with 65mm chambers. Assuming that barrel is original to the gun it is a Browning marked gun, made by FN. It was not made for the european market.

At this early date the Browning name would only have been on the barrel, probably with an Ogden, Utah address. This is clear because it says "Special Steel". If it was made by FN for other markets it would have said "Acier Special". It has a factory 28" barrel which was made to metric dimensions so was only 27 1/2" long.

It has been heavily "restored". You can see where part of the engraved lettering is buffed shallow and reblued. The color of the bluing looks like caustic blue, not the proper salt rust bluing which Browning used in those days. The stock was replaced or refinished. The pad is not original. That's a shame because the original horn FN buttplates are soooo cool.

Now for the kicker. IMO it has already been modified to shoot 2 3/4" shells . When you get it in hand PM me and I'll help you confirm that with more details on what to look for. Remember that some of these conversions were done by small time smiths and sometimes they left out a few of the steps in the 12 step program. You need to study it and shoot it to really understand what shells you need to use.

If it will only cycle short shells reliably don't feel too bad. The RST 2 1/2" 16's are nice. If you really get into it you'll start loading your own short shells, then you can buy more guns.

Regarding the price, the last owner probably had more than that invested in it. If you want one from this vintage that looks "pretty" this is a oretty good buy.

For my money I'd rather have spent "tree fitty" and got one with patina, that was used but not abused in original unrestored condition. But hey, I know I'm different....I like the look of an old grey workhorse, especially in a grade 1 A5.

Jeff

'Bout time you showed up Jeff. Figured between you, offhand 35, and 662 we'd get this fella some answers Very Happy

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

Rev,

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I hope he likes his gun.

I think the Standard Sixteens are John Browning's red haired step children, and are under appreciated.

Jeff

Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 76 Location: western canada

Sounds like you have purchased a fine FN Browning. I have a little different slant than the information you have recieved so far on this forum. The gun you have was not made for the European domestic market. FN and Browning A5s for the domestic market have factory sling swivels on the fore end and the stock. The serial number always starts with a Y. If the chamber can handle 2 3/4 shells, the barrel will be clearly marked 63.5 mm. just ahead of the barrel proof marks. I am a little suspicious of the barrel, as your pictures show a ramp under the bead. I have shot and owned a lot of A5s and never saw anything like that. As far as price wise, a gun is worth what you want to pay for it. Hope this is information is of some use to you.

Regards
John

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

John,

I agree that the gun was not made for the European market, and wrote as much earlier. But I disagree with a number of the points you made.

First sling swivels, The presence or absence of swivels tell you nothing. Many A5's made for Browning for the US market have factory sling swivels, especially in the era this was made. By the way this gun was shipped from FN in late 1930, probably in December.

Second, The absence of a Y prefix means nothing on this gun. There were no letter codes in use when this gun was made. The presence of a Y prefix would tell you a little. By the way a total of 4,773 Y prefix 16 ga. guns were made between 1954 and 1974 and only 2 were shipped to the US.

Third, A5's made to chamber 2 3/4" shells are not marked 63.5mm

2 3/4" is 70mm, and that is how they are marked. 2 9/16" chambered guns are marked 65mm.

Last, the ramp under the bead is the normal factory ramp, used on plain barrels from this era. I'm sitting here looking at 4 of them right now, covering production from 1923 to 1951.

Jeff

I have a Standard Auto 5 plain barrel 16ga. with a ramp under the bead made in '52. It is also marked 70mm.

Dennis

Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 7 Location: The Great Northwest

Jeff, John, and all,

When I ask questions such as I posed above, and I receve such detailed responses as you've given, I am often humbly reminded of how much I don't know concerning this hobby of firearms collection! Sad

I was very disappointed to learn that this gun had been restored. Although I suspected possible restoration, I didn't think that was the case due to the description. I, like yourself, would have much preferred a non-restored (although older in appearance) gun to this one. I talked to the seller and he graciously offered to let me off the hook on this one. Now I just have to go out and find myself an unmodified 16ga Browning Auto 5! The search contines. . . Thanks to all who offered advice.

cox3497

Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 76 Location: western canada

Hello Jeff

I cannot agree or disagee with your comments as with most older guns, it appears nothing is correct. I just hauled two pre war A-5s from my gun cabinent. Both are plainly marked on the side of the barrel-Acier steel-C.16-CART. 2 3/4-63.5mm. Both of the barrels are Fabique Nationale, Herstal Belgiqe. I have shot thousand of rounds of 2 3/4 shells through them with no hangups.

Years ago and maybe one still can phone Browning direct and talk to thier resident historian. I had aquired an A-5 with the serial # Y 2020 with a 1 slightly above. The historian told me that the gun was manufactured for the European domestic market and all domestic guns were so marked. Go figure.

The swivel issue is new to me as I was under the impression only European models recieved this treatment. The ramp site is also something I was not aware of, which is kind of funny considering I have owned and hunted with at least twenty or more A-5s and never aquired one with this type of sight. As they say, your never to old to learn something new.

Anyhow, I love shooting the A-5 and thanks to you and this forum, I now have some new information to further confuse me.

Regards
John

Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 26 Location: Finland

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

John, the confusion and fun of sharing info and learning from each other is the thing that makes it so addicting.

Be a little suspect of the information from Browning, I dont have the personal experience to criticize their historian, but I do know their serial number information on A5's is just short of completely useless onolder guns.

We do know the Y prefix was used on some 16 ga guns made for Europe, but the lack of a Y does not mean they were made for the US.

The chamber info is the really interesting part and I'd like to keep this discussion going and try to flesh it out. Can I get the serial numbers of the "pre war" A5's you mentioned? How did you confirm they were "pre war"?

You indicated the barrels were arked FN, not Browning so that establishes they were made for the "non US" market.

This leads to a guess that the marks you referred to may indicate the range of shell sizes that the gun could accomodate, anything from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4". For FN, (not Browning) guns sold outside the US this may have been a standard proof mark after the guns were made to accomodate 2 3/4".

One dilemma remains, the 16 ga A5's were not generally made to accomodate the 2 3/4" shells till after WW2. So it would be surprising that they were marketing 2 3/4" guns for other markets prior to the US, where the longer shell was in demand.

John, thanks again for your contributions to this thread.

Jeff