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Joined: 31 Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Isanti, MN.

Happy Thanksgiving!!
I agree with most of what the other 'sage' members have said, so I can't add much. I shoot both o/u and sxs and find that fit,form, and follow-through seem most important for me.
I hate to appear as though I'm agreeing with all those 'riters', but if you are seeing the barrels, that much, you are probably not focusing hard on the target. I shoot alot and when I'm really on I rarely see the barrels, at least consciously.
And by the way. McIntosh shoots a sxs most of the time but uses an o/u on clay targets,(shot with him at a shooting/fitting seminar).
There is also the differences in the recoil thing to contend with, especially in high numbers clay target shooting.

Clays addict.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

WW, good job with the Citori!! I've found mine to be a near-can't miss gun but that may have to do with the fact I shot it way more than the sxs or M12 this year. I don't like the way it carries so much, but it's a hitter for sure. If I had to bet on a shoot's outcome, right now I'd take it over any other gun I own or have owned.

That doesn't settle the sighting plane thing for me, it's just the way things are right now. I had a Red Label Sporting 20ga that was a natural pointer for me as well, probably the equal of my M12 16, but hey, it was a 20 and who needs that?

kgb

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

I don't know you guys. I never thought about either. All I can say is when I go out and Birds rise I shoot and I swear to you I never see the barrel. I know I pull the gun up fire and watch the game fall. I have no recall of doing none of this but my blood is rushing and my heart is pounding. When I go pick up the game I'm all smiles. It makes no matter if I'm with somebody or by myself. I very seldom miss the quarry but many of times I wonder how I hit it. I have always been the same way with rabbit hunting. When the rabbit breaks I bring the gun to bear and I know the last thing in my head before I pull the trigger is the sight pitcure where the game is so as not to accidently shoot someone or something. My father always preached this and pounded this in our heads. He always told us kids once youl pull the trigger you can't call it back. If you ever have a accident your gun is gone for good and you will not hunt again as long as you are living at home. Well to say we never did have any close calls because of this.

The only time I see the barrels and a sightplane over the rib and I am aware of it is when I am shooting any clay sports. It seems then I do my best with a sxs but I do shoot o/u's,auto's. pumps and single barrels.

Just calling it the way it appears to me.

Most very good shooters do not recall seeing their barrel or rib on a successful quick instinctive shot, especially two eyed shooters. However, the brain must recognize the relationship between the barrel and the target for it to tell the trigger finger its time.

The hand/eye process we call wingshooting is a subconcious one based on the brain recognizing the blur of the barrel passing the target our eyes are focused on. We see only the target in the primary focal plane our eyes are locked on, but the barrel's image must be somewhere in the picture.

Think of the sight process as a photo of an object on a table. The object is dead clear, but all the other stuff in the photo is blurred to a greater or lesser degree depending on the distance to the primary focal plane.

Another way to understand it is to think about what we do when we jump to grab a branch or put our hands out to catch a ball. We focus on the branch or the ball. Our brain sees our hands in the image, but we don't consiously recognize them. We are too focused on the object we are trying to catch. If we focus back to our hands in the process, we will probably miss; our attention on the object we are trying to grab is broken.

It all works for us the more we practice the wingshooting process with a gun that fits us so it hits along the flight line of the object we are focusing our eyes on. Gun fit is critical to the this process. Shoot the gun, then fit it to correct its point of impact to our needs, then shoot the gun a lot. Its that simple really.

Joined: 31 Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Isanti, MN.

As it seems much of the time......you are so right about the simplicity/complexity of pointing a shotgun, 16gaugeguy! Hard to believe we ever miss(not that I evvver miss....LOL).

Jim Twisted Evil

Stolen from Bro. Larry quoting Gene Hill:

Shotgunner's Notebook
"My controversial conclusion? When the target is a relative constant (you know almost precisely where it will appear and when), the single, narrow sighting plane of the over-under is an advantage to precision alignment. When the target is random, and some EXACTNESS must be sacrificed for SPEED, then the side-by-side has the advantage."

I've had to (reluctantly and with sig. frustration) just give up on trap, but took the 12g Sterly that I used in S. Dakota out to Ben Avery this am for an experiment, using 7/8 oz loads. I could not keep myself from losing focus on the target when looking over those 2 brls. With wingshooting however, I think those 2 brls keep you aware of the 'bird-bead relationship' despite your appropriate focus on that gaudy rapidly escaping pheasant. Don't seem to have the problem though shooting low gun skeet with my SxSs (and that's the only guns I use.)

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

I will say I agree with you 16gg and also the rev. But as I reflect back in the 50's when I was a youngster I remember my very first rabbit I took on the run. I had a singleshot stevens 410 and could only afford to by 2 shells at a time. (The grocery man would open a box and sell them to us kids indivdually.) When the rabbit took off on a run from the area by my feet I think he might have got about 6to 10' when I nailed him. My cousin started laughing and told me to at least give them a running chance.

As I continue to look back on that day I never remember bring the gun to bare. All I remember is the gun going bang and the rabbit rolling.
After that day I have shot many a rabbit within 3 to 4 feet of me which I blew them to hell but never remember seeing the barrel. Now some of these were with bolt actions mossbergs one piece stock. Some guns were just deals I traded for and maybe kept for a week and trade again. These guns never came close to fitting me. That being said I believe the mind compensates for incompatibality and adjust to the situation in a hyper second.

I got to quit on this, its getting to deep for me and I don't have the education for all of those fancy words. Just my thoughts.

I know of more than one trap shooter whose gun does not shoot too closely to where he is looking. Over time, he has mastered the ability to compensate. His brain in now imprinted on a sight picture with the barrel pointing to a place under the target. However, hand him a gun whose barrel actually points at the target when he mounts it and he can't hit a thing. He also can't hit any target but a rising one consistantly. He also can't hit doubles targets, skeet targets, sporting clays targets or game birds consistantly.

Some folks would misinterpret this as aiming. I call it "pointing off." Some folks with astigmatism have to do this too. For the average shotgunner, wingshooter, it is better to set the gun up to hit exactly where we look and learn to shoot that way. It is far simpler to do this than learn to compensate. This is especially true if we shoot more than one gun and one game.

To do this properly, we need to pattern the gun for POI the correct way, which is from the shoulder, focusing on a mark on a pattern sheet, and bringing the barrel/barrels to bear from some point at least two feet from the mark in a smooth, steady swing. A series of shots all at the same mark will register where the gun is actually centering the pattern in relation to where we are focusing our eyes. Then its a matter of adjusting the stock as we need to to bring the pattern center right on the target. If we do this, we will be shooting with a gun that hits exactly where we look. If not, we will always be learning to compensate, and we will never become consistant at all moving targets.

This process I'm describing is essentially what a stockfitter does for us. It's also better to perform this process early on before we imprint on a sight picture that is not dead on. Otherwise, we are stuck with what we get until we can unlearn it and relearn correctly. Just like an ingrained habit, this can be darned hard to do. some folks never can and are stuck with less than best shooting style.

I know, I spent 5 years doing exactly this when I went from one eyed to two eyed shooting a after over a decade of doing it wrong. I was able to not because I'm gifted; I'm just one stubborn cuss that will not quit easily. It was a real bear though.

So I now advocate learning to wingshoot the right way right from the start. It's easier, the results are better, and the shooter will progress a lot faster towards becoming an accomplished shot. It's too bad most average American shooters never get a chance to. We simply buy a gun and learn to shoot it the way it fits us out of the box. We are then stuck with what we get. Only the fortunate few find a gun that fits well right out of the box.

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

16gg
Cant argue with that. Well put.

Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Michigan

I'm obviously not as well-read as many here, so what I say is purely from my experience and my own analogy of the circumstanses.

I know I hit game better with a SxS or single than I do with an OU, pump, or auto. My theory is that it is because when shooting a single or double, one is holding the barrel(s) in the pointing hand. One simply has to point at the target like pointing a finger. I too never consciously see the barrel or bead, but rather just point and shoot. In my experience, one does not have time to acquire and refine a certain "sight picture" when the grouse flushes. One only has time to point and shoot. A pump, OU, or auto does not shoot where the hand points because the barrel is not in the hand. The barrel is above the hand, and the gun shoots higher than the hand. I tried a Benelli auto for a season and did not kill a single grouse. Shot high every time.

Having said that, I will tell you that I shot my first 25 straight trap with my dad's old model 12 pump. Target shooting is different. You know where the bid is coming from and going to, and you know when the bird is coming cause you call for it. You have time to think about sight picture. In trap the birds are always rising so a gun that shoots high is not a bad thing. Grouse don't fly like that usually. They pop up to the top of the brush and make a relatively level beeline for the next cover.

Okay, that's my opinion. Call it inspiration or ignorance but that's my view.

Once again, gun fit is critical to wingshooting. It is not necessarily the gun type, but howwell it fits the shooter. By fit I mean the gun hits exactly where one's eyes are focused when it is mounted normally and comfortably with the cheek pressed firmly to the comb, the butt locked solidly in the pocket of the shoulder, and the dominant eye looking squarely down the middle of the barrel and/or rib in a uniform and consistant manner.

Other than supporting the gun, the forehand has little to do with pointing and really should just go along for the ride if the stock comb allows the shooter to put his eye dead down the center of the barrel and not too high or too low. If the gun fits you properly, you really point a shotgun with your upper body above the waist and not your fore hand. Once the gun is mounted, nothing above the waist should move out of alignment. It all must move as one as the eye directs.

I can and do hit well with all the guns I regularly shoot regardless of gun type, and I shoot them all. However, every one I shoot well either fits me nearly perfectly as it was made or it has been redone to fit me.

I never really understood the critical importance of gun fit to wingshooting until I finally had my trap gun stocks made fully adjustable. I had to spend many hours figuring out what configuration worked best for me for each gun. One is an O/U, the other is a high ribbed single shot trap gun. Each has its own measurements, but either will now plain smoke a clay target all the way out to 50 yards or more. They both now shoot exactly where my eyes are focused as is required of a trap gun, I.E. a bit high. Mine hit 65-35.

Now, after finally tweaking these two guns in to hit precisely where my eyes are focused when properly mounted, I understand that the mechanics of wingshooting start with gun fit. These guns are so finely adjusted, that I could probably hit clay birds with a bullet out of them fairly regularly if a bullet would fly straight out of the barrel along the line of sight from my eyes to the mark.

I also now understand that each gun can be a law unto itself and each might or might not need some tweaking, even if another identical gun shoots perfectly for the shooter.

I have two 16 ga Citori models I regularly shoot, both with 28 inch barrels. Both shoot close enough to perfect for me right out of the box like nearly all the small frame Citori Lightning and Superlight models do. This is purely matter of luck for me, and is probably why I like small frame Citori Lightnings as much as I do. However, one 16 shoots just a tad higher than the other. Its not enough to really affect my bird shooting or my skeet shooting. However, I do a bit better at recreational trap with the slightly higher shooting one. The other is by far, my favorite bird gun. Its my go to piece and the one all other bird guns I own are judged by.

I also shoot my Model 37 Ithaca very well, because the gun now fits me. I adjusted the length of pull a tad longer than as it was made. This just happens to put my cheek on the comb exactly right in line with the rib on the barrel at the right height. I did the same thing with the AyA Matador so it too hits dead on. Both are well within the limits for LOP my build will tolerate. Same for the Beretta 409. I had to tweak them all a bit. Now, they all are effective for me, at least as bird guns go.

However, I can't shoot with some types of shotgun stocks worth beans. Older doubles with a lot of drop drive me up the wall. I do best with a slightly higher and less angled comb line as found on most modern shotguns. Same for some of the pre-WWII autos and pumps. Those with a lot of drop just don't cut it for me. I cannot adjust them enough to suit and would need to replace them with a stock that would.

The long and short of what I'm saying is that if you own a gun that does not shoot well for you, and you know the barrel or barrels are straight enough and well regulated enough to be consistant, then it is simply a matter of gun fit. Have the gun fitted to you if possible. If not, get rid of it for one that can be or one that fits well as is. Your shooting will never be at its best until you do. Practicing with an ill fitting gun will only do damage and will reinforce habits that will continue to hurt your shooting long after you dump the gun and get one that does fit..