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Lon
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:50 pm  Reply with quote
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Posts: 387
Location: Spokane, WA

pudelpointer,

No offense taken!

I agree, in a perfect world, it would have been best to evaluate the Green and Green dot on the same day. I didn't have any Green Dot powder on hand so I took the seven most consistent recipes of Green Dot I'd previously tested and loaded them with Green. I did use the same reloader, same reloader settings and used the same gun and same choke. So, like you said the atmospheric conditions I couldn't match exactly.

I knew going in it wouldn't be a perfect comparison. What I set out to do was see if IMR's claim that Green was more efficient, cleaner burning and more consistent than Green Dot had any merit.

Although I can't claim I proved this definitively, my evaluations encouraged me to experiment some more with Green. I will now try to find a few loads that might work their way into my select handful of favorite reload recipes.

I have no brand bias. So, I'm looking for the components that help me achieve my personal goals with reloading. Others may have different reloading parameters than I do.

Here's my criteria:

1. Readily available components at reasonable prices
2. Components fill the hull to about 3/8" to 5/16" from the hull rim with no fillers
3. Produce a velocity close to my desired end use (skeet, quail, phez, etc).
4. Produce consistent velocities with an extreme variance of 35 FPS or less and a
Standard Deviation of 11 or less.
5. Produce this consistency time after time. It'll never be exact but I want
repeatable results within realistic boundaries
6. Pattern well at the distance and with the choke necessary for the intended end
use.

Lon

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:56 pm  Reply with quote
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Those who say I have denigrated or disrespected Lon's testing are really fishing for something that isn't in the lake. As you can read from my post, I complimented Lon's effort. He's made an objective comparison that is valuable and valid. Thanks again, Lon.

I stand informed on the Clay Dot issue. I'm sympathetic to it, for sure. Thanks for reminding me of that historic tidbit, Cold Iron.

I'm for competition -- it does improve the breed. I'm not for unfair competition, and I do understand that Alliant may have started a little name infringement war. I still don't see how these new powders will work out for Hodgdon. The game is still the same: They have to put price pressure on Alliant to win. Maybe they will lower the price some day, but wouldn't you think the best time to offer a competitive price would be on product introduction rather than later?

For my part, I attach no fashion-based interest to foreign-made products vs. those made in my country, unless they are competitive in value -- i.e. features at a price. Yes, I do buy foreign made products. As we've seen, one could label my choice/preference for the Alliant Dot's as politics if he was determined to be offended. However, it's fundamentally a choice of economy, not politics. To return to the point -- I can't see how these new Hodgdon's powders could be considered a better value if they are sold as virtually the same and "interchangeable" with their lower-priced competition. The offensively named Clay Dot was priced lower than Clays -- that makes sense. I'm guessing the price advantage Alliant has always enjoyed in shotgun powders gets under Hodgdon's skin more than the name rip-off -- it ought to! And let's face it, it was pretty easy for Alliant: Clay dot seems to be Red Dot with a little more yellow dye in the colored flakes, doesn't it.

I consider my choices in light of my values. Others are free to have other values and make other choices. To each his own, and let the market speak.

Cheers!
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

MaximumSmoke,
One thing I recently noticed that might factor into the economic decision is availability. Here's what I mean: for a couple years I tried to buy Alliant powders, and couldn't find any; when I saw 8lb jug at Powder Valley of GD, I grabbed it. Love GreenDot, my favorite powder in 20ga 3/4oz loads right now.

However, I have NEVER seen Alliant GD (or BD or Herco) at a local store, including Cabelas which I go to several times a month, Bass Pro, or Sportsman's Warehouse. I did see an 8lb jug of RedDot for $200 at Cabelas. Certainly no 1lb either.

But what I DID see, within a month of marketing announcements, were IMR Green/Red/Blue all on the shelves. I could grab a 1lb can for $25, no HAZMAT fees or shipping to acquire it.

While the GD I bought was perhaps lower in price, when the hazmat and shipping is factored in, and that I have to purchase 8lb jugs x 4 to distribute the hazmat charges, I find the IMR Green sitting on the shelf ready to grab and go to be a "good value". There's a whole 'nother economics when availability/scarcity is factored in.

Anyways, just an input on why Green may be a good value to some. Like you, I'm all in favor of multiple supply sources and competition. And I do like the results Lon got, which indicate to me that Green may give decent low deviations and is in the ballpark certainly for the tested recipes.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Lon wrote:
pudelpointer,

No offense taken!

I agree, in a perfect world, it would have been best to evaluate the Green and Green dot on the same day. I didn't have any Green Dot powder on hand so I took the seven most consistent recipes of Green Dot I'd previously tested and loaded them with Green. I did use the same reloader, same reloader settings and used the same gun and same choke. So, like you said the atmospheric conditions I couldn't match exactly.

I knew going in it wouldn't be a perfect comparison. What I set out to do was see if IMR's claim that Green was more efficient, cleaner burning and more consistent than Green Dot had any merit.

Although I can't claim I proved this definitively, my evaluations encouraged me to experiment some more with Green. I will now try to find a few loads that might work their way into my select handful of favorite reload recipes.

I have no brand bias. So, I'm looking for the components that help me achieve my personal goals with reloading. Others may have different reloading parameters than I do.

Here's my criteria:

1. Readily available components at reasonable prices
2. Components fill the hull to about 3/8" to 5/16" from the hull rim with no fillers
3. Produce a velocity close to my desired end use (skeet, quail, phez, etc).
4. Produce consistent velocities with an extreme variance of 35 FPS or less and a
Standard Deviation of 11 or less.
5. Produce this consistency time after time. It'll never be exact but I want
repeatable results within realistic boundaries
6. Pattern well at the distance and with the choke necessary for the intended end
use.

Lon

I don't see any problems with the test you conducted, in fact if people(nit pickers) actually knew how to read and use chronograph results they would get quite a bit out of your test results. As I stated this isn't the first time Hodgdon has claimed their powders were exact copies of other powders, which if anybody knows the process they use for copying powders they can't make exact copies but clones of powders which will be similar but different.
My thoughts are the IMR copies of Alliants powders are good if you can't readily find Alliant powder on the shelves. I consider myself lucky as I have an Alliant Master Distributor not to far from the house so I can get anything I want usually. I have no reason to buy Hodgdons copies especially since I can get Alliant powder cheaper than Hodgdon power.
Anyway thank you for the test results.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

maybe the powder cos. could just keep their products coming and consistently (and competitive ) there wouldn't be so much BS ... in the past few yrs , I've used 700x , RedDot , Green Dot , Clays , ClayDot , now E3 , and my guy sez he has ClayDot again . This is the sequence of availability , not the fact I need to try all these . My 20/28 comes and goes and is my all ga fave !! I'm amazed any co can be competitive with all this mayhem .... Lon , always great when someone posts these kind of posts . I see Hodgdons has some new posts in the data section with some of these , and as the info comes avail , it will be easier to make comparisons . THANKS for the effort !!

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:10 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Minnesota and Florida

The powder shortage here around the Minneapolis/St. Paul area was dire, as I'm sure it was everywhere, but that was a couple of years ago now. It seems to be no sweat to get powders off the shelf in any quantities around here now. I suppose that's a benefit of a larger metro area.

A couple of years ago I could not find any of the usual Hodgdon or Alliant powders for my skeet shooting, or any other powders for that matter. On principle, I resisted hoarding, but I evidently resisted too long, and thus had to resort to non optimal stuff. I could mail order Longshot from a place in Texas, so I laid in a big supply of that which I'm still trying to use up. Can't say I like it for 7/8 oz. loads in the 20 as it is a little slow and you need a little more, and it's not cheap, but it works. The vast majority of what I shoot at skeet is 20 gauge as I use the 20 in the 12 gauge and doubles events also. Longshot is pretty good in 3/4 oz. 28's, but I had laid in a decent supply of HS-6 for that. I also lucked into 8 pounders of 7625, Win SuperField, etc. That's all good stuff, of course, but costly to begin with, and prices were jacked up from there during the shortages. Using them required some changes in other components and hulls -- a small PITA.

Anyway, if the shortage is over, I'll be glad to get back to my regular preferences after I burn up this interim stuff. And yes, it is good to have multiple sources that are interchangeable. Let the competition begin/continue! Having a "cushion" of powders to consume, I have the luxury of waiting about a year to see if and how competition affects prices, but I paid through the nose for that "luxury", as it turned out. Whatever happens, I think it is likely I'll be back to Alliant 20/28, Red dot in the 12, and Green Dot/Unique/Universal in the 16 (still have a pound and a half of Solo 1250!), but in the .410 I may ditch H110/296 for something else.
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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Last night, actually early this morning about 4 AM I had a dream that I was loading and looked up and the powder container was empty. I panicked and woke up LOL. Likely because I am down to less than a pound of green dot. It is nice to have selection of powders that we are familiar with. Hope we never go through The Great Powder Drought ever again, but if we do hopefully more options will be available at that time.

MaximumSmoke wrote:
The powder shortage here around the Minneapolis/St. Paul area was dire, as I'm sure it was everywhere, but that was a couple of years ago now. It seems to be no sweat to get powders off the shelf in any quantities around here now. I suppose that's a benefit of a larger metro area.

A couple of years ago I could not find any of the usual Hodgdon or Alliant powders for my skeet shooting, or any other powders for that matter. On principle, I resisted hoarding, but I evidently resisted too long, and thus had to resort to non optimal stuff. I could mail order Longshot from a place in Texas, so I laid in a big supply of that which I'm still trying to use up. Can't say I like it for 7/8 oz. loads in the 20 as it is a little slow and you need a little more, and it's not cheap, but it works. The vast majority of what I shoot at skeet is 20 gauge as I use the 20 in the 12 gauge and doubles events also. Longshot is pretty good in 3/4 oz. 28's, but I had laid in a decent supply of HS-6 for that. I also lucked into 8 pounders of 7625, Win SuperField, etc. That's all good stuff, of course, but costly to begin with, and prices were jacked up from there during the shortages. Using them required some changes in other components and hulls -- a small PITA.

Anyway, if the shortage is over, I'll be glad to get back to my regular preferences after I burn up this interim stuff. And yes, it is good to have multiple sources that are interchangeable. Let the competition begin/continue! Having a "cushion" of powders to consume, I have the luxury of waiting about a year to see if and how competition affects prices, but I paid through the nose for that "luxury", as it turned out. Whatever happens, I think it is likely I'll be back to Alliant 20/28, Red dot in the 12, and Green Dot/Unique/Universal in the 16 (still have a pound and a half of Solo 1250!), but in the .410 I may ditch H110/296 for something else.

That sounds like one advantage of living in the cities. Over the years my reloading purchases have ranged from Ahlman's up near the cities to Austin Gun Club bulk purchases to Monsoor's Gun Shop in La Crosse Wi. (Roger). With the cost of shipping still need to hit some of those places in the next year or so before I run out of shot.

But when I ordered the 8 lb. keg this morning I called Recob's Target Shop in Wi. They use SpeeDee delivery and shipping is half of UPS. And Haz Mat is only $15 instead of $32 that UPS charges. And no sales tax if your in Mn. So 8 lb. keg delivered to my door came to $155 total. As long as I was paying for Haz Mat had them throw a brick of primers in there also. Still have a good number of DR16 wads that I ordered from them last year. Checked Scheels this weekend and 8 lb. of Green Dot would have cost me $200 plus tax Shocked
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TripleH
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:19 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 168
Location: Michigan

Lon you've likely seen already, but was doing some morning reading and found this in Curmudgeon archives from a few weeks ago. I know BPI's FPS/Pressures aren't always considered reliable, but figured I'd add to the thread as another reference point comparing the two powders since the only other difference here is shot size.



Load# 170419-9339
HULL: Cheddite 16 ga. 2.75”
PRIMER: CHED209
PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) GREEN DOT 20.0 GR.
WAD: Z16
SHOT: Lead 7/8 oz. (382 gr.) #6
CRIMP: Fold + OS16
RESULTS: PSI 10600 FPS 1400

Load# 170419-9343
HULL: Cheddite 16 ga. 2.75”
PRIMER: CHED209
PROPELLANT: (HODGDON) IMR GREEN 20.0 GR.
WAD: Z16
SHOT: Lead 7/8 oz. (382 gr.) #5
CRIMP: Fold + OS16
RESULTS: PSI 10500 FPS 1400
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Lon
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:04 am  Reply with quote
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Triple H,

Thanks for adding to the thread. Those two recipes are certainly germane to this thread and like you said, BPI data is suspect to some of us.

That's interesting that the speed and pressure came in almost identical with the two powders of this topic.

However, I prefer recipes that don't require fillers, overshot cards or anything extra.

Thanks,
Lon

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TripleH
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 168
Location: Michigan

Yes even as new to all of this as I am, I can definitely already understand people could form an opinion that BPI recipes are put together specifically to move their product. They all seem to be sprinkled literally with extra goodies.

I know all of those items have their place, and are used successfully by many, and it's not lost on me that majority of companies exist to make money, so it's not like it's a nefarious scheme.

It does add a layer of complexity to folks in my shoes who are new to the game though. I've got way to much learning to do to judge, but I look at those loads based on what I've picked up along the way, and wonder why the overshot card at all?

If the 7/8 load is that loose in the z-16 wad, wouldn't it likely still fit nicely in the SG-16? They have a published load with 7/8 oz in a SG-16 with 19.5 of green dot in a ched hull with ched primer listed at 1270fps and 8500pressure...so wouldn't they likely get similar results just bumping that powder up a grain and not dealing with overshot in the first place?

Then I get a headache, (realize I'm risking derailing your thread again), and remind myself to KISS for now....a hull, a primer, some powder, a wad and a payload. I may get super crazy and go out on a limb with some x-spreaders someday, but even those are asking me to cut petals off the wad, out of my comfort zone! Smile

Back on topic: more published data that supports your work and research related to similar performance between two.

Rob
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
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A couple tosses of $0.02 from the peanut gallery:

1. I'm grateful for all the testing being done, and that the testers are sharing their results with us. This is truly in the spirit of the way things have always been done here at 16ga.com. Thank you, especially from one who doesn't have the facilities or tools to test.

2. I take no position in the naming wars between Alliant and Hodgdon. The dispute about Clay Dot v. Clays and now any dispute over the use of colors in names strikes me as just so much commercial competition. I'm all in favor of that - when there's only one product on the market, the producer can charge pretty much all he can get away with. The entry of a second similar or identical product facilitates competition between the producers. That competition usually comes in the form of price competition, which takes the form of both a brake on the inevitable attempts to raise the price and the occasional price war. This, if only because coming up with an entirely new product costs a lot more than discounting to grow market share and a new product has to develop a following. A much bigger risk.

3. The thing which has really galled me has been the long-standing absence of all the Dots and Unique from store shelves. When powder was available online I have not been able to justify ordering to have it shipped to my home, both because reloading has been uneconomic compared to buying factory loads for targets, because I don't reload that much (Chicken and egg here, I suppose.), and because for several years powders - when available- were exorbitantly priced, as were primers and shot. As it is, where I live in Maine I saw one (count 'em - one) 1# can of Unique on store shelves at my local Cabela's between December 2012 and February 2017. That's over 4 years when Unique was for all intents and purposes unobtainium in Maine. The Dots were almost that bad, coming back into the general stream of things only last fall. Clays also came back last fall. (The same obtained for other stores and gun shows.) As it is, what surprises me most is that the "colors" were so slow in coming to market. With the prices of powder going from the high teens into the thirties (At a 2014 gun show I was offered 2# of 20/28 for "only" $70. Someone else bought it as I was telling the seller "no".) it astonishes me that manufacturers did not ramp up production. I recognize they made a considered decision that in the long term buying new production was not in their economic interest, much like they did not add production capacity for .22 LR because they deemed buying that capacity to be uneconomic. But, there was a boatload of money to be made - I'd love to read the internal spreadsheets and reports to their respective Boards justifying the decisions - and they took their time.

4. I'm glad there's competition in the market. I look forward to a price war, or at least stable prices, making reloading economically sensible for me. Assuming I can find the time....

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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:40 am  Reply with quote
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Dave
I have been switching my target loadings over to Vectan Powders. It is very economical ,Graffs has $20 HAZ fees and often No HAZ fee if you buy enough and they have a good reliable supply. It Is very clean burning as it is Nitro Cellulose without Nitro Glycerin . There is data for 16ga and soon to be some for 28ga

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