16ga.com ~ View topic - 16ga Elsie; new to me and I have questions

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

I recently bought a nice L.C. Smith Featherweight that I thought was a 20ga. (Thats what the dealer said, and it looked like it), but when I got it home for closer inspection, I saw it has 2 9/16", 16ga chambers! It is not marked with a gauge anywhere and it has VERY tight chokes; can't really get a 16ga "full" gauge in the end of the barrel!? It has SN 111752, making it about a 1928 gun. Did they choke them full++? Rolling Eyes

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Maybe it is a 20GA which would explain why you cant fit the 16 GA full choke in it.

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

No, I have a chamber gauge, and the chambers are a perfect fit for 16ga shells; it is the muzzle/choke area that is tight. Rolling Eyes

Brophy's book states that the standard 16g bore for LCs was .662. LOTS of LCs 16 bores are tighter and I also can't get my sliding rule choke gauge in the muzzles of my 1906 2E NOR can I get my 12/16 micrometer bore gauge in! There has been some discussion about the frequent finding of XF chokes in 16s over on the LCSCA Forum http://www.lcsmith.org/ The official word from the factory was that they refused requests to bore 'tighter than full' and the standard chokes were as follows:
16 ga. bore .662, Imp. cyl. .657, mod. .639, full .629 (.033)
Standard full varies from .033 to .037 depending on gun maker. Clearly, lots of LCs have 'tighter than full.'
BTW: Unless requested otherwise-all LCs were sent out F/F

I'm going to have Dan Lammers here in Phoenix check and clean my 'new' 2E, lengthen the chambers, open the chokes to Sk 1/ Sk 2, reinforce the wood around the side plates and head of the stock, and install an ivory bead. His phone is 602-298-4635 and he's done great work for me.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

I've measured a few LC 16's with a bore and choke gauge, and have often found that they're underbored and have pretty darned tight chokes--especially in the L barrel. When I go to a gun show, I just carry the little Galazan choke gauge. Not at all unusual for the full barrel to be too tight for the 16ga ring. And I have found some so tight that my bore and choke gauge, which is designed to measure both 16's and 12's, won't fit in the L barrel either.

Hunter Arms was just about the last of the American manufacturers to convert from the old standard 2 9/16" 16ga chamber to 2 3/4". I've never nailed down the year in which they made the change, but I think it may be as late as 1940. I know that I've examined Hunter Arms guns from the late 30's by serial number (either LC's or Fultons) and found them to be 2 9/16". You can be almost certain that a Hunter Arms Elsie started life at 2 9/16"; the later Elsies, after Marlin bought out Hunter in 1945 (marked LC Smith Gun Co), will be 2 3/4" for certain.

Elsies were certainly built strong enough that you could lengthen chambers to 2 3/4" and shoot modern loads in the gun. In fact, 1 1/8 oz loads were available even in 2 9/16" shells, so a load that heavy, when you need them, shouldn't hurt the gun. But it's always wise to go no heavier than you need in old guns, and LC's do have a tendency to develop cracks behind the sideplates. I'd certainly stay away from the 1 1/4 oz 16ga "mags", even if you have 2 3/4" chambers!

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

Doc/Larry: Thanks so much for the information. I have been a shooter/reloader for years, but am fairly new to the SXS world, especially from a historical, informational point of view. I am having fun learning because of guys like you and forums such as this. Both are appreciated!! Very Happy

Also, thanks for Dan's phone number.

Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 171 Location: western PA

one of my 16 gauge elsies is choked .615 in both barrells. the other i have is .635 right and .628 left. the second one is my phesent gun. i am thinking about useing the tight choked one for squirl.
Ben

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

Thanks Ben. Mine is .615 and .625 and I have been wondering if it would be safe to shoot, as I can't push a 16ga wad through the barrels!! I would like to shoot the gun and will probably have the chokes openned and the forcving cones lengthened. (Have to check on the cost) Thanks for the info, I feel better knowing my gun is not a one-of-a-kind clinker. Rolling Eyes

Joined: 01 Oct 2006 Posts: 171 Location: western PA

The elsie that i use for phesent was choked .615 and .625. i used a .625 reamer and ran it down the barrel and turned it by hand. useing oil on the reamer and barrel. it took about 2 hrs of turning bu hand but it went through. some might think that it was a crazy way to open it up, but it patterns beutifull. I woun't go into how i opened up the other barrel to .635. because i may be lynched.

Ben

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

CP, that gun's safe to shoot. The main problem you'll have is that it was designed before plastic wads came along, and as a result, you're almost certainly going to end up with patterns that are extra-full!

The 16 gauge LC's have .650 bores which is why they seem so tight. Make sure if you open the chokes the Gunsmith you choose measures the bores.My 1923 Ideal grade measures tight full and tight mod with a galazan gauge but is really IC/MOD.I have 16 gauge guns that range from .650 bores to .672 bores, point is you have to measure the bore and the choke.

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

Thanks for all the information; appreciate your help guys. These old SXS are sure interesting pieces of history. I am going to enjoy shooting/reloading for it. Smile