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< 16ga. Ammunition & Reloading ~ Questions for those of you who shoot 2 1/2" shells |
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Posted:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:21 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 208
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I recently received an order from Ballistic Products set up around shooting 2 1/2" inch shells. Got a roll crimper for both 12ga and 16ga shells. Overshot cards, wads, the Trim Doctor, etc.
What I guess I never realized is that, for a roll crimp, the hull actually melts a bit to roll down to the overshot card. Well...evidently that's the end of that hull at 2 1/2". I made one shell for my 12ga, took it out in the back yard, and let it rip. It felt and acted great. But when I took the hull out of my shotgun, it didn't look so great.
My questions are:
A) what do you do with your previously roll-crimped 2 1/2" hulls? Do you just cut them to 2 1/4"? Wouldn't it make more sense to just get the short shell star crimper from Mec?
B) Do you have a hull vise to hold the hull when you're roll crimping it? I used my hand to hold the shell. Any good home-made alternatives to the roll crimper?
C) Do any of you use AA or STS shells for your roll-crimped hulls? Ballistic Products recommends straight-walled hulls like Fiocchi, etc.
D) What perceived advantage of your roll-crimped shells over star-crimped shells do you find? It seems like the roll-crimp method is a lot more work than running the shell through a Mec.
Thanks a bunch,
8mmFan |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:56 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: West MI
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I too shoot and reload some 2 1/2 -2 9/16" shells. I do not Roll Crimp them though since the recipe I put in that gun fits in a fold crimped shell. I RC other loads and gauges and usually get several loadings out of the hulls. Critiquing only 1 RC'ed shell for process validation is not a good reference, usually a cold tool needs several shells to get running well. "Not so good" what happened? cracks? torn or missing hull parts? ?? I wouldn't call it "melts" as far as I understand it the RCing process warms/softens the plastic enough to allow the spinning tool to roll it over to the desired shape and firing reverses the process.
A) I used to RC everything (in my magnumitis days) but now RC only those on their last leg before sending to the recycle bin or its a gauge (24ga) that requires it. But again RC'ing usually allowed several reloads before the hull was "shot".
B) yes, I use a MEC Supersizer collet resizer, 2 birds one stone.
C) do not, besides RGL hulls for my trap loads, Ched style hulls do everything I ever need a hull to do, 24-10ga.
D) 10lbs of $#!^ in a 5lb bucket, when trying to get the max loading in a certain hull, RC'ing needs the least amount of hull wall to close the shell. Other, if hopelessly frugal RC'ing allows maximum hull life as it's the easiest way to "adjust" to getting a good crimp on varying/shortening hull length's.
The one tip I found when learning the RC technique that helped most is to preheat the tool before starting a batch and keep the heat (friction) in the tool by getting a good roll (sorry) going in the batch. A propane torch held on the spinning tool for approx a 5-7 count get's it coffee cup hot and was good starting point for the batch.
Hope this helps.... |
_________________ Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up. |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:53 am
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9464
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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As above, I pie crimp
For those that I did roll crimp, one shot and trash.
Mike |
_________________
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USAF RET 1971-95 |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:53 am
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Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 1498
Location: the Moosehorn
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if your trimming hulls I make a tool that can do 25 shells in less than 10 min. it works in a cordless drill. PM me if interested |
_________________ ALWAYS wear the safety glasses
If you take Cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like Prunes than Rhubarb does ----G.M/ |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:15 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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First, for sure, no plastic roll-crimped hull comes out looking great after firing, even with the best roll crimp job. However, I have re-crimped such hulls several times, and even pie-crimped hulls previously roll-crimped. Melting the hull? You're doing it wrong if that happens, or maybe you have the wrong tool. IMHO, the BPI roll crimpers are simply the wrong tool if re-using your roll crimped hulls is important. A good roll crimper treats the hull more gently and produces a smooth rounded edge without distorting the surface of the plastic. The BPI tools I've used tend to make a very square-edged roll-over.
Even with the best roll crimping techniques and tools, you do have to get used to the "rippley" mouth of the fired hulls. Just get over it and re-load it. Use a case expanding taper if you must, to get the wads in -- I don't generally have to, but I have done it. Make your own taper from a suitable dowel -- gradual taper, please, smooth and hard -- wax it; shine it up. Alternatively, make such a tool from a metal rod. Heat it a little before use, if you'd like. Do not use it by turning it in a drill.
If you roll crimp, you might want to invest in paper hulls! They straighten out nicely with firing. I have black and also blue Cheddite papers in 16. They roll crimp nicely. Those hulls seem sort of "varnished" and not waxed like U.S. brand hulls of the old days were, and Federal paper 12 gauges still are. You can find old electrically-heated "hull re-conditioners" (MEC made one!), and they will basically re-melt whatever wax is still in the paper and firm up the hull mouth for another loading. I have not tried it yet, but after multiple re-loads, I might see if I can add some wax to the Cheddite hull mouth area to give it more "crimp-able life", at least presuming the hull has not by then been rendered useless by burning through at the base. I do not have a heated hull re-conditioner. A friend does have one, but its a 12 gauge. I presume I could make one. |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:45 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2170
Location: Florida
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I load from 3/4oz to 1oz in 2.5" hulls and only fold crimp , dr16 for 3/4oz, sg16 7/8oz and ch1632 for 1oz no need to role crimp. |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:26 pm
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Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 258
Location: West-central Missouri
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Rollin' is for eccentrics with suavity (like shooting 16ga). ('')
I like rolled shells for hunting. Easier to read the size when printed on the overshot card.
Skive plastic hulls more for a better roll.
Temp is everything with plastic. Too cold and the roll doesn't fold tightly or crumples the hull. Too hot and bonds in the plastic begin to break making the plastic brittle; breaking when fired.
Paper hulls roll easily... |
_________________ An ounce of fives, the smell of nitro in paper hulls, wet gundog, and Hoppe's #9... |
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Posted:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:28 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 208
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Thanks for the great replies, guys. That is information that helps!
I loaded a couple more and fired them this evening. Same results. I end up with a hull that is, yes--"rippley" and hard. It may well be that I'm not getting the roll crimping tool hot enough before applying the crimp. The torch is a great option and I'll try it. To reload these hulls I'd definitely need to skive them somehow. I'll try your recommendation.
For those who don't like the BPI roll crimping tool, what tool do you recommend?
For those who don't roll crimp, and instead "pie crimp" (I've never heard that term before), are you using the "short shell" crimper from Mec?
And yes, I totally get the "suavity." I think everybody here has to be pretty suave and cool or we wouldn't be 16'rs, and the roll crimp is DEFINITELY suaver (sic) than a damn "pie shell!" Haha.
Thanks again!
8mmFan |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:11 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: West MI
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Shot some 2 1/2" 5/8oz (summer target) loads at skeet last night, what a joy. I think my old break barrel pellet gun recoiled more.
I agree w/MS regarding BPI tools & IMO Precision Reloading RC Tools are superior. It may well be why your struggling to get good crimps. There is one made in Italy folks like but the PR RC tools do everything I need.
Reshaping the hull mouths with a plastic funnel or plumb bob or other conical dohickey helps with reloading.
If trimming hulls it's hard to imagine a better tool for the job than Byrdog's little gem. I have one, works great. |
_________________ Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up. |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:09 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1395
Location: Tappahannock, Virginia
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When I load short shells, I place a hard overshot card on the final station of my mec and hold the shell during the crimp. Having placed an overshot card prior. This is known as the Hardin crimp. It leaves a section open in the middle of the fold crimp. I use the same recipe as my 70mm loads, as to keep bushings and all simple without having to make any other changes.
I have the Russian crank type roll crimp tool, but have yet to get it to even start a crimp. They are on eBay. Someone else here on the forum has one and says his works fine.
Also have the Precision roll crimp die which I mount in a drill press. It seems to work fine, have not used it much. Shells seem reloadable after firing to me, but I have not done multiple reloads. Have not been shooting my short chambered guns enough to fully test longevity. |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:57 am
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Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Location: eastern oregon
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I use two old hand crank rollers, and both give excellent results whether it is plastic or paper. I do about 5-6 turns with the handle and it is done. No heating and nothing else done to the mouths of the hulls before the roll is applied. I tried the BPI roller and was not able to get the proper results. With paper hulls the failure comes not from the mouth deteriorating, but the body developes pinholes from the powder burn. With plastic hulls the mouth does deteriorate to cause an eventual failure. |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:04 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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Let's get a little more suave about this, guys. Skive plastic hulls before roll crimping?? -- Fugidaboudit, man. Wasted effort. That also increases the chance of the hull being useless for future reloading because the case mouth is thinner and more easily distorted. Guys, it ain't so much the temperature of the roll-crimper -- its all about the shape of the roll crimper. Some are just plain wrong. Unless your crimp tool is very thermally massive, pre-heat occurs rapidly by the friction of loading a shell or two. You don't need to melt the plastic with a hot tool. You're trying to roll the material over smoothly without melting or softening it unduly.
So experiment with tool speed (rotational speed as well as down-feed speed) and pressure. You don't need a lot of rotational speed, and you might be surprised how much down-feed speed you need. You need to get the crimping over with before the hull material gets too hot. Using high rotational speed and lingering over the crimp to "baby" it doesn't work. Some folks like a small amount of lubrication. I've never seen the need for this. To each his own. Another important factor is to make sure you have enough "free hull" to roll into a good crimp. Start with about 1/4 inch above the overshot card. With really thin hull walls you might be able to reduce this a little.
Hardin Crimp? It's Hartin Crimp, (Mr. Hartin devised it) and it's been digested here. It is simply a pie or star crimp with inadequate hull length to close completely, so an regular overshot card (.020 to .030 inch thick -- not thicker) is used to cover the central hole, which will be hexagonal with a six-point crimp, or octagonal with an 8-pointer. This crimp works best on hulls with good crimp memory, not new hulls. You can trim 3/16 inch from a 2 3/4 inch hull, basically load it as if it were original length except for the addition of the overshot card, use the same crimp setting and crimp with the shoulder and folds of the crimp right in the same places as they were originally, but have a hull length that is 2 9/16 ". The overshot card covers the resulting "hole" in the center. |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:23 am
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Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1395
Location: Tappahannock, Virginia
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My sincerest apologies to Mr. Hartin... |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:16 pm
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Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Language credits:
duckdup & 8mm each get 10 points for “suavity”
MS gets 3 points for “sauve” and 3 more for introducing “rippley”. Not to be confused with Ripley from Aliens.
For 10 bonus points what are Ripley’s first and middle name?
Jeff
P.S. I don’t roll crimp and can’t fathom ever wanting to. |
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Posted:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:46 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 401
Location: Tennessee
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I use the Precision Reloading 16ga roll crimping tool in my tabletop drill press with plastic hulls and get very good results. The PR tool looks very similar to the old Lyman tool in that it has four rolling 'pins' to turn the hull mouth. The BPI tools that I have seen have only one. Low speed is a key, as low as 150rpm works fine. No need to preheat the toolhead, IME that just distorts the mouth more. I can get multiple loads per hull, sometimes only two, but occasionally four or more.
As for a hull vise, I made one using a toggle clamp from Grizzly Supply and a couple pieces of 2x2 wood - but used to use my MEC Supersizer to hold them. |
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