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ole_270
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks

My son recently picked up what we believe to be a German Guild gun. Appears to be the same action as the Simpsons, "scolloped"receiver faces and scollloped buttstock abutements. It's stamped 1919 and carries both black powder proofs and nitro proofs. The barrels are stamped Krupp Steel. Stampings seem to indicate the right barrel at Cyl, the left, "choked". Weighs just an ounce under 6 lbs.
The old gun is in very good shape, though I'd like to see him send it to a qualified smith for an action tear down, clean and oil. One of the older guys who shoots several older classic doubles at the small skeet club I joined stated that with the Krupp barrels he wouldn't worry about pressures. I reload most of what we shoot and the main two light loads I use are a 7/8 oz-7600 psi and a 1 oz-8300psi. We were wondering what the knowledge base here thought we should limit pressures to. Would like to take it along this fall on a wild pheasant hunt, but don't want to overload the gun.
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Savage16
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:50 pm  Reply with quote
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http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

does this help? can you provide pics of the barrel flats?

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skeettx
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:09 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

And the chambers are 65mm??

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx


Last edited by skeettx on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ole_270
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks

That chart is similar to the one we looked at when he got it. I've lost the pictures he sent me and he is out of state on a job till the weekend. I'll get pictures when I can.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:49 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 518
Location: Ontario

ole_270 wrote:
My son recently picked up what we believe to be a German Guild gun. Appears to be the same action as the Simpsons, "scolloped"receiver faces and scollloped buttstock abutements. It's stamped 1919 and carries both black powder proofs and nitro proofs. The barrels are stamped Krupp Steel. Stampings seem to indicate the right barrel at Cyl, the left, "choked". Weighs just an ounce under 6 lbs.
The old gun is in very good shape, though I'd like to see him send it to a qualified smith for an action tear down, clean and oil. One of the older guys who shoots several older classic doubles at the small skeet club I joined stated that with the Krupp barrels he wouldn't worry about pressures. I reload most of what we shoot and the main two light loads I use are a 7/8 oz-7600 psi and a 1 oz-8300psi. We were wondering what the knowledge base here thought we should limit pressures to. Would like to take it along this fall on a wild pheasant hunt, but don't want to overload the gun.


That's an idiotic statement from "one of the older guys who shoots classic doubles". Why? Because while Krupp steel is damn good, who knows what has happened to those barrels since they were made many decades ago. Is there pitting? Are the bores shiny and bright? Have they been honed? If so, how many times? How much steel has been removed over the years? Have the chambers been lengthened and are the barrel walls at the end of the chamber now too thin as the exterior contour narrows.

It doesn't matter if it's was originally the best steel ever made....if too much has been removed it may not be up for the task. I would shoot nothing out of it until I had the barrel walls measured and assessed by a competent double gun smith. If he deems it safe, I would then endeavour to keep my loads under 8000 psi, 1200 fps and 1 oz to save the wear and tear on that old wood. And that wouldn't stop me from shooting pheasant with it. Just not 40 yard going away shots.

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 pm  Reply with quote
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+ 1 what canvasback said.

Dale

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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks

Ok, got some pictures. These will be the most pertinent I think, there are more if I need them.





There are more stamps further up the barrels closer to the forend latch location if needed.
Our main question is, how much pressure do we dare use in this old gun. The gunsmith who received it and did the paperwork measured and said it had plenty of material to lengthen the chambers. He wasn't at all worried about that.
My two most common loads in the 16 are 7/8 oz shot,16 gr International Clays and a DR16 wad. 1 oz shot, 16 gr Universal Clays, and an SG-16 wad, both in cheddite cases. Both should be 8000 psi or less.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 518
Location: Ontario

Holy Shite....that's looking a lot like a Lindner. At the very least, whoever built this got their rough forging for the receiver from Sauer, same as Lindner did.

1919 is too late theoretically but that is no standard "guild gun". The wood alone is off the charts.

Are there any marks further up the barrels from the flats. If so can you post pictures.

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"The world cries out for such:he is needed, & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia"

Fox Sterlingworth 16
2 x Pieper Boxlock 16
Heym Boxlock 16
Citori 16
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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks




Try these
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canvasback
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 518
Location: Ontario

Thanks

Beyond me but I think we will know a lot more shortly.

Do not let the gunsmith who received it lengthen the chambers until we know more about this gun. In fact, don't do anything to it at all until you really know what you have and who made it.

_________________
"The world cries out for such:he is needed, & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia"

Fox Sterlingworth 16
2 x Pieper Boxlock 16
Heym Boxlock 16
Citori 16
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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:24 pm  Reply with quote
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WOW!!!
What a wonderful gun, do not modify it in ANY way!!
Is there a mark on the breech face way below and between the firing pin holes near the bottom?
Mike

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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks

I couldn't tell you, I'm 100 miles from the gun and he's out of town.
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P. Howard Clayton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 14
Location: North Georgia

Dang it...now I have drool all over my keyboard. Beautiful, just plain beautiful!!!

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Bob*N
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 5
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma

I would recommend that you contact:
J J Perodeau
711 S. 263rd West Avenue
Sand Springs, Oklahoma 74063
Phone: 580-747-1805

He was formerly the Gunsmith at Champlins in Enid Ok.
He has done some work on a couple of my doubles.
He knows his stuff and it should be an easy drive from SE Kansas.

Very nice shotgun!!
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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 89
Location: SE Ks

Thanks to all for the info and interest. My son has been in Utah on a job and we're working off memory and stored pictures. Not real good for answering questions, but the best we can do at the moment
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