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< 16ga. Guns ~ He has this old gun? |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:20 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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My son recently picked up what we believe to be a German Guild gun. Appears to be the same action as the Simpsons, "scolloped"receiver faces and scollloped buttstock abutements. It's stamped 1919 and carries both black powder proofs and nitro proofs. The barrels are stamped Krupp Steel. Stampings seem to indicate the right barrel at Cyl, the left, "choked". Weighs just an ounce under 6 lbs.
The old gun is in very good shape, though I'd like to see him send it to a qualified smith for an action tear down, clean and oil. One of the older guys who shoots several older classic doubles at the small skeet club I joined stated that with the Krupp barrels he wouldn't worry about pressures. I reload most of what we shoot and the main two light loads I use are a 7/8 oz-7600 psi and a 1 oz-8300psi. We were wondering what the knowledge base here thought we should limit pressures to. Would like to take it along this fall on a wild pheasant hunt, but don't want to overload the gun. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:50 pm
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Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 1700
Location: Minnesota
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Posted:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:09 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9472
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:36 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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That chart is similar to the one we looked at when he got it. I've lost the pictures he sent me and he is out of state on a job till the weekend. I'll get pictures when I can. |
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Posted:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:49 am
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 687
Location: Ontario
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ole_270 wrote: |
My son recently picked up what we believe to be a German Guild gun. Appears to be the same action as the Simpsons, "scolloped"receiver faces and scollloped buttstock abutements. It's stamped 1919 and carries both black powder proofs and nitro proofs. The barrels are stamped Krupp Steel. Stampings seem to indicate the right barrel at Cyl, the left, "choked". Weighs just an ounce under 6 lbs.
The old gun is in very good shape, though I'd like to see him send it to a qualified smith for an action tear down, clean and oil. One of the older guys who shoots several older classic doubles at the small skeet club I joined stated that with the Krupp barrels he wouldn't worry about pressures. I reload most of what we shoot and the main two light loads I use are a 7/8 oz-7600 psi and a 1 oz-8300psi. We were wondering what the knowledge base here thought we should limit pressures to. Would like to take it along this fall on a wild pheasant hunt, but don't want to overload the gun.
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That's an idiotic statement from "one of the older guys who shoots classic doubles". Why? Because while Krupp steel is damn good, who knows what has happened to those barrels since they were made many decades ago. Is there pitting? Are the bores shiny and bright? Have they been honed? If so, how many times? How much steel has been removed over the years? Have the chambers been lengthened and are the barrel walls at the end of the chamber now too thin as the exterior contour narrows.
It doesn't matter if it's was originally the best steel ever made....if too much has been removed it may not be up for the task. I would shoot nothing out of it until I had the barrel walls measured and assessed by a competent double gun smith. If he deems it safe, I would then endeavour to keep my loads under 8000 psi, 1200 fps and 1 oz to save the wear and tear on that old wood. And that wouldn't stop me from shooting pheasant with it. Just not 40 yard going away shots. |
_________________ 1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz |
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Posted:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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+ 1 what canvasback said.
Dale |
_________________ One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:32 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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Ok, got some pictures. These will be the most pertinent I think, there are more if I need them.
There are more stamps further up the barrels closer to the forend latch location if needed.
Our main question is, how much pressure do we dare use in this old gun. The gunsmith who received it and did the paperwork measured and said it had plenty of material to lengthen the chambers. He wasn't at all worried about that.
My two most common loads in the 16 are 7/8 oz shot,16 gr International Clays and a DR16 wad. 1 oz shot, 16 gr Universal Clays, and an SG-16 wad, both in cheddite cases. Both should be 8000 psi or less. |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:35 pm
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 687
Location: Ontario
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Holy Shite....that's looking a lot like a Lindner. At the very least, whoever built this got their rough forging for the receiver from Sauer, same as Lindner did.
1919 is too late theoretically but that is no standard "guild gun". The wood alone is off the charts.
Are there any marks further up the barrels from the flats. If so can you post pictures. |
_________________ 1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:54 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:56 pm
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 687
Location: Ontario
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Thanks
Beyond me but I think we will know a lot more shortly.
Do not let the gunsmith who received it lengthen the chambers until we know more about this gun. In fact, don't do anything to it at all until you really know what you have and who made it. |
_________________ 1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:24 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9472
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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WOW!!!
What a wonderful gun, do not modify it in ANY way!!
Is there a mark on the breech face way below and between the firing pin holes near the bottom?
Mike |
_________________
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USAF RET 1971-95 |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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I couldn't tell you, I'm 100 miles from the gun and he's out of town. |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:47 pm
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Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 32
Location: North Georgia
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Dang it...now I have drool all over my keyboard. Beautiful, just plain beautiful!!! |
_________________ can't never could...wont never will |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:12 pm
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Joined: 30 May 2014
Posts: 22
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma
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I would recommend that you contact:
J J Perodeau
711 S. 263rd West Avenue
Sand Springs, Oklahoma 74063
Phone: 580-747-1805
He was formerly the Gunsmith at Champlins in Enid Ok.
He has done some work on a couple of my doubles.
He knows his stuff and it should be an easy drive from SE Kansas.
Very nice shotgun!! |
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Posted:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 pm
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 151
Location: SE Ks
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Thanks to all for the info and interest. My son has been in Utah on a job and we're working off memory and stored pictures. Not real good for answering questions, but the best we can do at the moment |
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