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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:35 pm  Reply with quote



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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Old C,

The same can be said for proof of Damascus barrels coming for another sources to Hunter Arms.

Having known Bill Brophy he is the determining historican of Hunter Arms/Marlin guns.

I quoted you Bill's writing in his book, it appears in several of the different grade L.C. Smith write ups in joint wording. As far as is known, Hunter Arms only purchased Barrels from Krupp and Whitworth. As I said maybe the Damascus Barrels were supplied by Whitworth but made by other Damascus Barrel makers, this very well might be true, however there is absolutely no Hunter Arms record of such business transactions.

Believe what you want.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:25 am  Reply with quote
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You are simply wrong and not a dependable source of information on LC Smith in regards your position that LC Smith Damascus ever came from Whitworth .

Your position that Whitworth was a source for Damascus when you cannot provide a single physical example of a "Whitworth" made Damascus barrel on an LC Smith much less any gun renders your position ludicrous.

Whitworth was and is a mark of quality. Guns with the Whitworth sourced barrels sold at a premium. The fact there is no example in extent of a Whitworth Damascus gun and that every example of the Whitworth name I find on gunbroker, gunsinternational, naturabuy, gun trader, Julias, etc are all, 100%, fluid steel guns speaks for itself.

Your logic that if I could not find the definite source of ever Damascus barrel that it may have come from Whitworth is fundamentally flawed by the fact Whitworth did not make Damascus.

Further I have found other definite sources for LC Barrels Damascus and Fluid (see below).

It is on you to prove your new fact. It is you who stated you would "educate" us here on the 16ga Forum. My position is that you are misleading us in selling your unsubstantiated opinion as fact.

You pose yourself the "L.C. Smith Man", you note at the bottom of every one of your post ""L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins "

"Having known Bill Brophy he is the determining historican of Hunter Arms/Marlin guns." You "claim" great knowledge.

You state repeatedly that "Hunter Arms only purchased Barrels from Krupp and Whitworth.”

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Let's look at the actual record first in Brophy, then in Houchins and lastly guns.

The "Hunter Arms" period of LC Smith ran from 1889 to 1948 according to Brophy

Not a single notation in the Brophy book of Whitworth directly references them as a source for Damascus. Even the index makes it clear what Whitworth provided: "Whitworth Fluid Steel"

On page 57 Brophy the Monogram Model was available in "either Damascus or Whitworth Steel"

On page 69 Brophy states, "it was probably true that all Damascus barrels were imported from Europe and that until about 1915, most all barrel blanks(drilled and reamed steel bars) were imported." Hardly a thundering declaration that all barrels were imported from Whitworth and Krupp as you maintain. After 1915 it appears most barrels were sourced from domestic sources.

"It is the opinion of this writer, however, that all Damascus and Twist steel barrel blanks were imported and none were made by LC Smith or Hunter Arms." P.150

He takes the time to discuss the names given the different quality levels of barrels. While identifying "Very Finest Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel" he does not take the time to identify the brand of Damascus save as Choice, Best, Very Fine, and Fine; then later Fine Chain & Good Chain Damascus, and Best English Stub Twist. P.150. The omission of Whitworth Damascus is telling.

On page 190 Brophy again discusses barrels, this time in relation to proof marks, he provides two different examples of "Sir Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel". No examples are provided of a Whitworth Damascus proofmark.

He does state that Krupp barrels were available in the catalogue, but he had yet to see any. Fortunately others on the LC Smith Collectors site have found proof-marked Krupp Barrels. No one on the LC Smith Collectors site has ever mentioned Whitworth Damascus, and as of yet in response to a question about it all responses are negative.

Having dug through both of Brophy's books looking at 100% of the barrel references (LC Smith Shotguns, Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun) in the last days, I continue to note that nowhere in the Brophy book does he state "Hunter Arms only purchased Barrels from Krupp and Whitworth"

Given that Brophy unmistakably did not say in his two LC Smith Books what you claim where exactly did he say it and under what circumstances?

You appear to be putting words into Brophy's mouth he did not say.

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Enough from on Brophy, let us look at the later and in my opinion more researched LC expert John Houchins and his monumental work on LC Smith

Now you appear to accept Houchins as an expert on LC Smith. You put his name in all your posts as a footer.

I earlier referenced Houchins on post on the LC Smith Collectors' website: The vast majority (probably 95%) of the Smith fluid steel barrels ( Armor,Royal,London,Crown,Special Steel,Nitro) were all made in America,in Syracuse N.Y., with the exception of course of the Whitworth and Krupp tubes. The majority of the Damascus barrels were made in England. Some few were made in Belgium especially the chain damascus. There are a few fluid steel barrels marked LH for Lochet Habran (Belgium)that were probably ordered along with a supply of chain damascus barrels. http://members.boardhost.com/lcsmith/msg/archive/1165417925.html

Houchins does not reference Whitworth as a source for Damascus whatsoever, and I cannot find anyone save you saying Whitworth did.

In his book Houchins notes that chain Damascus probably came from Belgian. P378

On page 382reference Fluid Steel he notes a 1961 interview of the LC barrel employee John J Gross who was foreman of barrel brazing for 37years. Mr Gross replied that nearly all the barrels came from a steel works in Syracuse, except for a few Whitworth barrels that came from England. Hardly the ringing Whitworth and Krupp sourcing that you proclaim.

Houchins goes onto identify the specific steelworks in Syracuse, Holcomb Steel Co, on page 383.

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In looking at articles and postings online on barrel steel I did find some other sources for LC Smith Barrels. You really should spend more time on the LC Smith Collectors' Association site as there are many educated LC Scholars there who have taken the time to survey the proof marks on numerous Hunter made guns.

Perhaps you should do better research Belgian maker's marks that have been identified on Damascus and Fluid steel L.C. Smith barrels, they include: Bauduin Doyen, Heuse-Riga Fils, Henri Heuse-Riga, George Laloux & Ernest Heuse-Lemoine. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Further reference LLH Barrels which have been found on Smith guns manufactured from 1910 to 1948. The 'LLH' of Laurent Lochet-Habran has been found on Fox, Baker, Lefever, Crescent, Ithaca (Lewis & Flues with 'Smokeless Powder Steel'), NID, Lefever Nitro Special, Lefever M-2 single barrel, and Westernfield Deluxe/Western Arms Long Range, Smith Royal, Armor, London, Crown and Nitro barrels and Hunter Arms Fulton and "Ranger" for Sears. Baker guns may be marked "Nitro Rolled Steel" and Folsom Crescent guns "Fluid Temper Steel". https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

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I have scoured through my extensive library looking for a reference to Whitworth Damascus. Nowhere in books by Beyer, Stunnendieck, Greener, Burrard, Gough, Ventners, Dallas do I find any "Whitworth Damascus" Every reference to Whitworth is reference their fluid steel barrels. A further search of gun websites find only examples of fluid steel "Whitworth"

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Maybe the words of John Hunter, Sr. will have an impact on you

"Our Home Industries - The Hunter Arms Co." by John Hunter, Sr.

The Sandy Creek News, April 13, 1916

"Gun barrels, previous to the war, were practically all manufactured in Birmingham, England and Liege, Belgium. Perhaps you may remember that during the early days of the war the Germans drove the men out of a large factory just on the outskirts of Liege. That factory was where practically all the American barrels were manufactured.......(In the Boring Dept.) you see the barrels in very large quantities coming into this department in hard wooden boxes which are characteristic of the foreign shipments. "

http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031653/1916-04-13/ed-1/seq-3/
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn83031653/1916-04-13/ed-1/seq-3/&sa=D&ust=1552440341085000

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So let's review where we are at:

1. You have not produced evidence of a single LC Smith gun with clearly marked Whitworth Damascus barrels. All Whitworth LC guns I can find are fluid steel guns.

2. You have failed to prove your point with any concrete evidence such a thing as Whitworth Damascus barrels ever existed. All Whitworth marked guns I can find are fluid steel guns.

3. I have reviewed the historic records of the dominant LC Scholars to include books by Brophy, Houchins, Beyer, Stubbendieck, without finding a single reference to Whitworth Damascus production. My review of Greener, Burrard, Gough Thomas, and Venters on the other side of the pond show no reference to Whitworth Damascus. Lastly numerous search queries of the internet cannot find an example.

4. I have shown from a reputable sources that your assertion that "Hunter Arms only purchased Barrels from Krupp and Whitworth" is false, Houchins makes clear that Hunter Arms acquired barrels from domestic sources, Belgian sources, Krupp, and Whitworth. Proof marks on known barrels further show sourcing from a variety of companies than you ascribe.

Perhaps you should spend more time in the exchange of thoughts and facts on the LC Smith collectors website.

I share your passion for doubleguns which is why I took the time to dig into this.

You are an LC Smith enthusiast. You dearly love the guns. You love boasting about your family's treasures. I respect you passion, however over the top it maybe. That said on the subject of "Whitworth Damascus" you are wrong. It is not an opinion on my part as you imply, but a researched truth, one which can be generally accepted and validated.

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fin2feather
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Shocked

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 pm  Reply with quote



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Old C,

You went to all this research to prove nothing, which is usually the case with you gentlemen who want me to be wrong. Unfortunately there is no proof that Whitworth did not provide the Damascus Barrels to Hunter Arms, I believe they probably did. It maybe true they purchased them from one or a few different Damascus barrel makers.

Your problem is you want me to be wrong so badly that you go over board using your computer to make it so. Fortunately I learned more about the Hunter Arms, LC. Smith Company and their gun making, sitting around a table with my Grandfather and Bill Brophy than you can ever find on any computer search. If Hunter Arms purchased the Damascus Barrels directly from the makers, there is no Hunter Arms documentation of that fact. However it could be true, although per Bill Brophy, Hunter Arms as far as could be determined only purchased barrels from Krupp and Whitworth. So my logical deduction is that Whitworth either made or supplied the early Hunter Arms Damascus barrels. If you can find documentation that shows Hunter Arms purchased the barrels directly from the Damascus Barrel makers, I will then change my opinion.

If you want to prove I actually made a mistake, and I am human also, it could happen although seldom does. Find some Hunter Arms documents disproving my opinion, other wise I will believe Bill Brophy, he after all was the L.C. Smith Historian. You sir are just a man having fun with his computer. I did like your references to both John and Bills books however.

Remember this, not everything you read on the computer is true, what I have been taught is directly from the men who worked for the Marlin & Hunter Arms companies. I pass on the information I have been taught, you however are free to believe anything you like. Further the L.C. Smith Collectors are not the home of the official historical record for L.C. Smith Guns, that distinction belongs to the Cody Museum. This was decided by Bill Brophy long ago. Maybe in the Cody Museum you might find the Hunter Arms Documents you need so badly, however I actually doubt it.

Until you can provide some documentation let this be the end of this discussion. You will not change my mind without the actual documentation, please believe what ever you want many will.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Sure do wish it was hunting season again Smile

BUT this is fun reading

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/06/barrel-making-steel-barrels.html


Last edited by skeettx on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:47 pm  Reply with quote
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I agree with Dave: "Not everything you read on the computer is true"; and there is the possibility "that I could be wrong".

IMHO, until some one produces a LC Smith with clearly marked Whitworth Damascus barrels, they never existed. Wink

Dale

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old colonel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:08 pm  Reply with quote
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Cheyenne08 wrote:
I agree with Dave: "Not everything you read on the computer is true"; and there is the possibility "that I could be wrong".

IMHO, until some one produces a LC Smith with clearly marked Whitworth Damascus barrels, they never existed. Wink

Dale


I concur, that said much good data can be found.

To date No one, much less Dave, has produced a clearly marked Whitworth Damascus set of barrels on a LC Smith, much less on any other brand of gun.

Whitworth Damascus does not exist.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:41 pm  Reply with quote
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Old C,

You went to all this research to prove nothing, which is usually the case with you gentlemen who want me to be wrong. Unfortunately there is no proof that Whitworth did not provide the Damascus Barrels to Hunter Arms, I believe they probably did. It maybe true they purchased them from one or a few different Damascus barrel makers.

Your problem is you want me to be wrong so badly that you go over board using your computer to make it so. Fortunately I learned more about the Hunter Arms, LC. Smith Company and their gun making, sitting around a table with my Grandfather and Bill Brophy than you can ever find on any computer search. If Hunter Arms purchased the Damascus Barrels directly from the makers, there is no Hunter Arms documentation of that fact. However it could be true, although per Bill Brophy, Hunter Arms as far as could be determined only purchased barrels from Krupp and Whitworth. So my logical deduction is that Whitworth either made or supplied the early Hunter Arms Damascus barrels. If you can find documentation that shows Hunter Arms purchased the barrels directly from the Damascus Barrel makers, I will then change my opinion.

If you want to prove I actually made a mistake, and I am human also, it could happen although seldom does. Find some Hunter Arms documents disproving my opinion, other wise I will believe Bill Brophy, he after all was the L.C. Smith Historian. You sir are just a man having fun with his computer. I did like your references to both John and Bills books however.

Remember this, not everything you read on the computer is true, what I have been taught is directly from the men who worked for the Marlin & Hunter Arms companies. I pass on the information I have been taught, you however are free to believe anything you like. Further the L.C. Smith Collectors are not the home of the official historical record for L.C. Smith Guns, that distinction belongs to the Cody Museum. This was decided by Bill Brophy long ago. Maybe in the Cody Museum you might find the Hunter Arms Documents you need so badly, however I actually doubt it.

Until you can provide some documentation let this be the end of this discussion. You will not change my mind without the actual documentation, please believe what ever you want many will.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Dave, you have yet to prove Whitworth Damascus ever existed.

I used a variety of both book and internet sources.

I used the Brophy book, which does not state the barrels were provided by only Whitworth and Krupp. In his book Houchins directly contradicts you.

Stamping on barrels pictured on the internet are physical proof of other makers.

Unquestionably others than Krupp and Whitworth provided barrels.

You can stubbornly maintain you have special knowledge based on conversations, undocumented, however that is not evidence that has much weight when compared to documented sources like Houchins. Just exactly what year did Brophy tell you Whitworth provided the Damascus barrel?

Your apparent disdain for the LC collectors association who like you are Smith enthusiasts is dismaying. While it is correct not everything on the internet is true they have provided a great venue for trading data to include pictures of barrel stamping. Enthusiasts like Rev Dr Drew and Tom Archer have documented examples of barrels sourced from other suppliers. Houchins posting to that website specifically addresses other sources. Houchins who supported the LC Smith Collectors Association

You have not provided anything but opinion, why don’t you take quality pictures of every stamping on a set of barrels you say came from Whitworth and post those pictures?

I am waiting for something tangible? Not a fifty year conversation you overheard that is contradicted by physical evidence on barrel stampings and statements by expert Houchins.

Show us some provable Whitworth Damascus.

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Beagleman
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:48 pm  Reply with quote



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I appreciate being " educated" by someone that makes an erudite presentation of facts not hearsay. Thanks for the information old colonel.

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:29 am  Reply with quote
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Beagleman wrote:
I appreciate being " educated" by someone that makes an erudite presentation of facts not hearsay. Thanks for the information old colonel.


+ 1

Dale

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