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< 16ga. General Discussion ~ 14ga Society charter member... |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:00 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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I received a very nice M Mach en Prague Damascus hammer gun yesterday. He was an high end Bohemian maker from the late 1800's, and one of his guns was voted best gun at the 2006 vintage cup. It was listed as a 12, but when I got it, a 12 wouldn't fit in the chamber, and a 16 was too loose, and rattled around. I looked on the barrel flats, and sure enough, it is stamped as a 14ga. Great. As you know, 14ga ammo is as rare as carnival horse droppings. I'll have to consider my options... |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
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The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:10 am
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 490
Location: Oswego, Kansas
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looks like you will definitely have to do some research and find some brass hulls for that one. The material is available but loading data would be trial and error..
You would definitely draw attention with a 14ga at a double gun shoot, or anywhere for that matter. Of course you would have to shoot in the 12ga class(just like with a 16) because they won't put you in a class of your own. |
_________________ Sweet sixteen forever
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Stevens 235 |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:22 am
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida
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I would try to swage MagTech brass 12 gauge hulls. They are quite thin-walled. It might take some fiddling, such as multiple stages of swaging -- multiple dies. The dies would be quite simple for a machinist to make -- try one of the makers of centerfire reloading dies. You will need to bring the outside diameter down about .037 inch. See the following list of shotshell nominal dimensions: http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html The hulls would likely need to be fully annealed before every swaging step. The hardest part will be to get the base right, as the rim diameter needs to come down about the same amount. Final stages of swaging near the base will need a fairly sharp-edged die. The rim diameter can be trimmed after all that. The only other alternative is to machine from solid brass rod.
Extrapolate loads from 12 and 16 gauge. Get 13 or 14 gauge wads, or whatever size works with the resulting hull wall thickness, from Circle Fly. No doubt you will want a fairly mild lead load, probably not more than 1 1/8 ounce, more likely a 1 ounce load, tops. Use the same powders used in lower pressure 12 gauge loads of 1/8 ounce more -- e.g. use Green Dot/IMR Green/International for the 1 oz. load and the next notch slower (Unique/Universal/Unequal/20-28 ) for a 1 1/8 ouncer. Might even want to start with Unique/Uni/Une in the one ounce load for lower peak pressures. These powder and shot-load starting points are based on the bore area ratios of 12, 14 and 16 gauges. I'd start with a 16 gauge load, chronograph (shoot for about 1100 to 1150 fps, it is a damascus barrelled gun, right?), see if that makes sense, and away you go.
The above is what I'd try, mind you. You're on your own adventure, of course. I like these sorts of things. I wish you the best of luck. Let us know what you find.
Tony |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:29 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2800
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Uncle Dan Fan,
If I remember correctly LeFever built a 24 gauge double gun, if you wanted an odd ball gauge gun at least LeFever was American made, and you are the Uncle Dan Fan!
Sounds like the gun was misrepresented when you purchased it, unless you want to build every shell that ever runs thru the gun, I would return it and get your money back. ASAP
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:17 am
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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If RMC hasn't closed their doors yet, I think they had 14 ga. brass cases. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:32 am
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9464
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:53 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2800
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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skeettx,
I think it maybe too late already, hope he can get thru.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:01 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote: |
Uncle Dan Fan,
If I remember correctly LeFever built a 24 gauge double gun, if you wanted an odd ball gauge gun at least LeFever was American made, and you are the Uncle Dan Fan!
Sounds like the gun was misrepresented when you purchased it, unless you want to build every shell that ever runs thru the gun, I would return it and get your money back. ASAP
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
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This. I have an email to the auction company. No response yet. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:19 am
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 685
Location: Ontario
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UncleDanFan wrote: |
I received a very nice M Mach en Prague Damascus hammer gun yesterday. He was an high end Bohemian maker from the late 1800's, and one of his guns was voted best gun at the 2006 vintage cup. It was listed as a 12, but when I got it, a 12 wouldn't fit in the chamber, and a 16 was too loose, and rattled around. I looked on the barrel flats, and sure enough, it is stamped as a 14ga. Great. As you know, 14ga ammo is as rare as carnival horse droppings. I'll have to consider my options...
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Mark, one of my favorite guns is a Lovena built in Prague. It's a light 12 sidelock so I don't talk about it much here but a beautiful gun that's great to carry and shoot. Those Bohemian guns can be way undervalued for what they are. Let's see pics! |
_________________ 1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
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1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:57 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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canvasback wrote: |
UncleDanFan wrote: |
I received a very nice M Mach en Prague Damascus hammer gun yesterday. He was an high end Bohemian maker from the late 1800's, and one of his guns was voted best gun at the 2006 vintage cup. It was listed as a 12, but when I got it, a 12 wouldn't fit in the chamber, and a 16 was too loose, and rattled around. I looked on the barrel flats, and sure enough, it is stamped as a 14ga. Great. As you know, 14ga ammo is as rare as carnival horse droppings. I'll have to consider my options...
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Mark, one of my favorite guns is a Lovena built in Prague. It's a light 12 sidelock so I don't talk about it much here but a beautiful gun that's great to carry and shoot. Those Bohemian guns can be way undervalued for what they are. Let's see pics!
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Yes, that's actually why I bought it. They listed it as an "unmarked hammer gun," possibly of American manufacture, but I saw the back action side plates say M Mach en Prague, with beautiful engraving of dogs, birds, and a hunter, beautiful barnard damascus, and gold inlays on the top rib, one of which you can see M Mach worn off. His guns are usually quite expensive, in the $8-12k range. Being a 14ga makes this one even more rare. I'm just not sure I have the time to invest in it. I'll post pics tonight. I just talked to the auction company and they said they'll give me a refund, so I may just do that, since I am buying a house and need the funds more than a gun I can't currently shoot. If anyone has any interest after I post pics, let me know. I'll probably be sending it back. Or, I invest $150 in some brass cases and have fun with that. Not sure yet. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:19 pm
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Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2126
Location: Hudson,Wy
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Well, if it's rare and desirable, and you didn't pay much for it compared to it's value, I would get cases and shoot it then if need be make a profit later. Of course there are not many guys looking for a 14 ga. Having brass and load data for it would make it more appealing at resale time. |
_________________ Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter... |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:00 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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WyoChukar wrote: |
Well, if it's rare and desirable, and you didn't pay much for it compared to it's value, I would get cases and shoot it then if need be make a profit later. Of course there are not many guys looking for a 14 ga. Having brass and load data for it would make it more appealing at resale time.
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Very good point. I'll be curious to see what everyone thinks when I post pics. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:38 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2800
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Uncle Dan Fan,
Depending on what money you have invested in her it might be worth keeping now that you have some casings and shell building data available.
Sounds like the gun looks real nice, definitely would like to see some pictures of her.
I do love good Hammer Guns.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:53 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3373
Location: The Great Northwet
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Here are a few pics:
Pluses: 14ga rarity, pedigree, tight, crisp and excellent mechanically, great 27.5" barnard damascus barrels, no dents and very good bores, beautiful engraving and great dimensions except for 13.5" lop. Points great though. Would be a great shooter and possible restoration candidate. Would add an extension if I keep it. 6lbs 8 oz.
Minuses: 14ga rarity, re-stocked (maybe a plus?), non original trigger guard tang, chip at toe. Needs a bit of stock work.
Leaning towards just returning it and getting my money back, but I would love to hear what you guys think. It would be fun to shoot it, if I have the time to mess with it. Trying to think of a great slogan for my new 14ga society: "carries like a 16, hits like a 12, although I don't know, since I can't find ammo." Maybe a bit wordy.
Thanks. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:13 pm
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Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Topeka, Kansas
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Concur with the previous recommendations of RMC
They are still there, but not speedy.
Go for it while you can. |
_________________ Michael
Topeka, KS |
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