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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:29 pm  Reply with quote
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Prompted by the thread started by ford4wd08 on shell length and ejection probs with some guns, I measured today, the length of hulls of various brands and manufacturers. Here are the results -- average, or a range, all in inches:

- Federals (recent manufacture) -- 2.729
- Remington Game Load Black -- 2.630
- Remington Express Green -- 2.672
- Fiocchi, Cheddite and other Euro 70mm hulls -- 2.725
- Cheddite 65mm hulls -- 2.54

You can see where the problems might be if the gun is marginal in its accommodation of shell length. I have no old, fired U.S. made 2 3/4 inch 16's to compare, but here is some info on other gauges. I measured 20's, 12's, 28's and .410's:

For 2 3/4 inch 20's --
- WWAAHS -- 2.618 to 2.624
- Remington Premier and Game Load -- about 2.68 to 2.72 - batches vary.
- Fiocchi Shooting Dynamic -- 2.716 to 2.726
- Old Western XPert paper hull from the '50's and '60's -- 2.64

You can see Winchester Western (Olin) has always made their 2 3/4 inch 20's about 1/8 inch short. Probably Remingtons were similar in length in the old days, though they are about a 16th inch longer than U.S. made WW's today (WWAAHS). Foreign-made 2 3/4 inch WW 20's and 16's are in 70mm Cheddite or Martignoni hulls -- Euro hulls. They'll be longer than the U.S. made AA's (20 ga.). The 70 mm Euro hulls in 20 ga. are again about 1/32 inch or less shy of a full 2.75 inches, same as in the 16. They'd be 2.756 if they were a full 70mm. It is interesting to see Federals are basically the same length as the Euro hulls. I think is is not to big of a stretch to draw the inference from these measurements that the older 2 3/4 inch 16 gauge hulls from WW and probably from the other U.S. manufacturers were only about 2 5/8 inches back in the day of the Model 12 Winchester. Today's Model 12 users would be better off, and almost in line with that length by using RGL's or 65mm Euro hulls in Model 12 16's and 20's. 65mm Euro hulls still have enough capacity for just about any load one wants to shoot in most 16 gauge guns. Certainly they have more capacity than the 16 gauge RGL.

12 gauge 2 3/4 inch or 70mm Euro hulls were also all about 2.725 or so, same as the Euro 70mm 16's and 20's.

Just for the hell of it I measured the current WW AA's in 28 ga. and .410. I did not get around to measuring any Euro hulls in those gauges/bores:

- 28 ga. AAHS (with the underline) -- 2.675 to 2.690
- 28 ga. AAHS (early ones without the underline) -- 2.559 (exactly 65 mm -- hmm.)
- .410 2 1/2 inch AAHS -- 2.526 (Gee -- very close to 65mm - just shy of 2 9/16!)
- .410 3-inch WW Super-X HS construction -- 2.930 to 2.940

The underlined AAHS hulls in 28 were made longer, I believe, because some skeet shooters had trouble getting a good load to fit. I can vouch for that, though I can cram in a decent load with Unique with careful wad selection, though Universal fits better, and Alliant 20/28 fits best with the 28 gauge AA wad or it's imitation from Claybuster. I believe 20/28 was specifically concocted by Alliant to make sure they did not loose their customers who had been using Unique in the old compression-formed 28 AA's. 20/28 seems to work almost grain for grain like Unique (which is old news), but is even more dense than its other competitor, Clays Universal, so it provides great fits in all AAHS 28's of all vintages. Another 16th of an inch does make the underlined 28 gauge AAHS hull more easy to load with pretty crimps.

Fortunately for Olin/Winchester, the lovely looking Remington Premier 28's turned out to be less desirable than even the short AAHS 28's, giving them a chance to change to a longer hull -- made easily identifiable by the underline on the label. While the Rem-Prems reload almost exactly like the old CF AA 28's, they have a short life at the crimp end, and give some problems on first reloading because of a very tight and short primer pocket. I really like the Rem Prem 28's for hunting loads -- they make very pretty shells on the first reloading. I don't load many for hunting, so I can baby them through a single-stage loader and not worry about primer seating problems screwing up my progressives. But I digress.

I did not measure the length of some of my old paper 28's from WW, Remington, and Peters. I bet dollars to doughnuts they are also about a 16th to an 8th shorter than the full 2 3/4 inches. Then again, dollars to doughnuts is about even odds today, so that's not a very risky bet, is it.

Cheers!
Tony
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ford4wd08
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 40
Location: Alcoa, TN

Tony,

Very informative post! It is interesting that there is not a tighter tolerance on the length control of these hulls....

It is hard for me to wrap my head around that much variance between brands. I work in Tier One Automotive for a steering system company, and we literally have tolerances of microns on certain features!

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:36 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 260
Location: Central Connecticut

Shotshell lengths are not critical, for anything but some older repeating shotguns. Shell length has no effect on ballistics. For the 16 gauge as long as the uncrimped shell length is 2.760" or less it is within tolerance. That comes directly from the SAAMI drawings.

Tight tolerances for shotshells are unnecessary and would only drive up costs with no real benefit.


Pumps and racks might have tight tolerances on certain parts but you aren't working in microns on every piece......if you were you wouldn't be selling many steering systems. Over engineering was phased out a long time ago.

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ford4wd08
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 40
Location: Alcoa, TN

MSM2019 wrote:
Shotshell lengths are not critical, for anything but some older repeating shotguns. Shell length has no effect on ballistics. For the 16 gauge as long as the uncrimped shell length is 2.760" or less it is within tolerance. That comes directly from the SAAMI drawings.

Tight tolerances for shotshells are unnecessary and would only drive up costs with no real benefit.


Pumps and racks might have tight tolerances on certain parts but you aren't working in microns on every piece......if you were you wouldn't be selling many steering systems. Over engineering was phased out a long time ago.



Sir, respectively pump are no longer in the picture... We are all producing electric systems. And I can assure that a electric ball screw steering system has many critical dimensions that are held to microns on drawings. There is also many dimensions on dual pinion EPS systems that held to microns......

But I understand on the shotshell length. It makes sense.

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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Apr 2007
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The key to great looking loads,

find a hull, stick with it, adjust your press
to load it perfectly.

Hoard those hulls

Smile

Mike

P.S. On my MII Texan, I can change out final crimp dies to allow
perfect reloads with different hulls and lengths

p.s.s. I have hoarded thousands of old compression formed
Win AA 410 and 28 gauge hulls.

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 260
Location: Central Connecticut

ford4wd08


Cool Cool Cool

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ford4wd08
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 40
Location: Alcoa, TN

MSM2019 wrote:
ford4wd08


Cool Cool Cool


Trust me, I miss the hydraulic rack and pinion days!

Now, back to shotgun shells.

Who supplies Federal hulls? I assume the Estate brand is the same?

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 am  Reply with quote
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The thrust of my efforts here was to help folks understand how they might "live better" with small action Winchester Model 12's -- the 16's, the 20's and the 28's. That action was designed for the 2 9/16 inch hull of the day which was even about a 16th shorter than 2 9/16 in most cases. Stretched to 2 3/4 inch chambers, those guns are marginal sometimes in handling today's 70mm Euro hulls, which are very uniformly about 2.726 inches long across all gauges, still about a 32nd shorter than 2 3/4 inch.

For sure, hull length is not much of an internal ballistic issue unless it starts to drastically affect the length of the cushion section of the wadding.

SkeeTX - Good-onya for hoarding those hulls. I have totally gone over to the HS for my .410 skeet loads several years ago, and I don't miss the CF's in .410 -- they burn out and warp like bananas, though they still shoot. I still have a few thousand CF 28 gauge AA's, which I strongly prefer, though the HS's in all gauges last longer. I don't especially like the AAHS in 12 and 20, especially the 20 for capacity issues, however slight. The best 12's and 20's for my high-volume shooting/reloading are . . . ta-daaa! . . . Remington Gun Clubs (and Peter's Targets if I can get them). They last longer than Remington Premiers! Go figure. They are also tossed out or left on the ground by the thousands by folks who don't reload, or are enamored of Remington Premiers and AA's. A dive in any trash barrel on the range will renew my supply. They're also great shells for autoloaders, as the ribbed hull feeds well and you don't feel bad about losing the hulls which fly everywhere.

I also have a good but dwindling store of Peter's Blue Magics, Remington/UMC's first one-piece hull meant to compete with the CF AA 12 ga. These are not the same as the later blue Peters Target which is just a nice blue hull the same as a Remington Premier, and a good hull in it's own right, especially as I love blue shells. Blue Magics have a little less capacity than the STS Premier and old load data treats them almost identically to the CF AA 12. The Remington equivalent, the Premier (not today's STS Premier) is the same, but green colored, and was also available in 20 gauge. Premier 20's load more like a CF AA than modern 20 gauge Rem STS Premiums -- a shade shorter with commensurately less capacity. They work well, as do the AAHS 20's, with the Rem RXP20 wad. Today's STS Premier 20, as well as yesterday's CF AA 20's work best with the slightly longer WAA20 wad. Ironic, isn't it.

If you are a high volume loader, or don't want to screw around much with crimp adjustments, SkeeTX's advice about finding what you like and sticking with it is excellent. Myself, I never met a shell I didn't want to re-load . . . or un-load, for that matter -- preferably through the use of a gun, though.

Cheers!
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