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rdja
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:24 pm  Reply with quote
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putz463 wrote:
I loaded a couple 1 1/4oz #B Bis shells to see what it would feel and look like through a fixed full choke 870 and the pattern printed a perfect Full choke at 25' ~22"dia and even. Recoil w/o 3 layers of hunting gear on was not uncomfortable with a #7 gun.

16D, I'm intrigued with this Bis stuff and getting the 16's in the late season Waterfowl game. Looking to mimic my 10ga steel Waterfowl loads from a terminal ballistic standpoint comparing pellet weight and count. Have a couple loads using Steel powder sent off to Mr Armbrust inspired by your super mag's. So far on paper promising.


Be sure to let us know the outcome of the testing and would really appreciate the load data. Never though Bs would pattern well out of a 16, but that sounds good.
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putz463
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:48 am  Reply with quote
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Certainly will do, of the 2 recipes sent for testing one was with buffer the other w/o. For reasons of pressure and fit (this load is #5.05 of poop in a #5 bucket) I removed 3 pellets from the unbuffered recipe offsetting the additional weight and volume of 1/2TSP of buffer. After things went well with the unbuffered (~22"@25y) recipe went to the range last night with 2 shells loaded with the buffered recipe. They printed (on greased steel plate) ~13-14" @25y w/only a couple/few flyers. Still hopeful for a 16ga late season 50-60yrd Goose load.

Rotometals #B counted & weighed 3 misc samples and the pellet hits their advertised count of 63/oz which extrapolates to ~6.94g/pellet approximating the weight of a steel pellet somewhere between #BB & #BBB. 1.25ozx63pllts=78-79 pellets very promising. More promising is BP's #BB Biz @7.6g/pellet (58/oz) surpassing a steel #BBB @7.29g/p. I have some #BB biz and 1 3/8oz fits in a 2.75" 16ga shell roll crimped. After receiving the report form Mr Armbrust about these loads and if within reason/safe, a batch of 1 3/8oz #BB Biz (1.375x58=79pellets) will be headed his way.

Although, all this may be moot if Mr Hammacks super fast small payload of Biz mentality plays out. I struggle to even imagine a small amount of med sized shot of Bis taking late season Honkers at 60 yards. But open to the possibility.

Fun stuff to think about when we're waiting for birds layout hunting all weekend, with any luck I won't have too much time to think about pellets and such... Very Happy

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

What you have to know about Nick's use of small shot is.....he is killing birds by hitting the head and neck. He is not even trying to kill with body shots.

If you can hit a clay target than you can hit the head neck of any bird that would require reasonably deep penetration to kill with body shots.

Believe it or not, Nick's method is an easier and a much surer way of killing birds than trying to get penetration on body shots.

Just my 2 cents.

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rdja
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:34 pm  Reply with quote
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In general I think mostly we all try to focus on the head when shooting a bird. I remember in the past he would not share the data on those super high speed loads, for liability concerns. I don't know if that means they have not been tested. I don't seem to have a problem killing ducks and geese with loads in the 1350-1400fps range. My pattern testing seems to show much higher speed can blow a pattern, maybe the very low amount of shot negates that, have no real idea. Embarassed
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airmedic1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 191
Location: Nebraska (It’s not for everyone)

Need an ounce and a quarter or an ounce and three eights, get a 12. Smile

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

Airmedic,

I am with you. There are times when a larger gauge just makes things easier.

Pushing a 16 to 1 3/8 oz., I guess you can, but a 12 does it with ease.

Kinda like 1/2 & 3/4 oz. loads in a 12 gauge. There are other gauges that work better for the lighter payloads.

No offense to anyone, just my opinion.

I even developed a 3/4 oz. load for the 16. I loaded about 300 of them but IMHO it was time wasted. To me the sweet spot for the 16 is 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. loads.

I do use 1 1/4 oz. loads for turkey hunting.

Never really found a need for 1 3/8 oz. loads to be honest.

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putz463
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:50 am  Reply with quote
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All good info indeed. No offense taken. Yes, agree choose the best tool for the job and each shotgun/gauge has its sweet spot of efficacy. This is more an academic exercise than anything read...because we can. Small issue for me is I don't own a field 12ga. I use 10ga exclusively for Waterfowl and 16ga for everything else but this Bismuth stuff got me thinking so I'm running with it. The 1.25oz load patterned and shot so well I figured why not try a 1.375oz. which on paper should more or less equal my 10ga #T load in pellet count and terminal energy. For me fun stuff to think about. Looking forward to Mr. Armbrust' results.

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Bill K
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 253
Location: North Shore of Boston

RE 16 GA non-toxic shot loads -

I am astounded as to what they (Cabelas, Bass Pro) are getting for factory loaded 16 GA shells with Bismuth shot.

But in the greater scheme of things steel shot (although I have #1 and F shot in my inventory) is completely out of consideration for me, the ballistic coefficient is horrible.

Heavi-Shot is cost prohibitive

Which brings us to Bismuth - of which I have #4 shot in my inventory.

Bismuth has something like 84% the specific density of lead, it doesn't require any special wads, nor custom recipes.

Remember to go by weight and not volume.

I've used lead 4 shot for decades for waterfowl and pheasant too, so switching over to Bismuth #4 is as easy as snapping twigs to me.

My absolute favorite non-toxic loads are Black Cloud made by Federal, they stop waterfowl dead-nuts.

However, they are not offered in 16 GA and I can't quite bring myself to cut open a few perfectly good 12 GA Black Cloud shells in order to get the combination of pellets including the Flight Stopper pellets to reload some in 16.

In my mind that would be the way to go.
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putz463
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:51 am  Reply with quote
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Taking the day off from being on the water hunting, READ; wore the shifter mechanism in the lower unit (150hrs on new SEI LU Evil or Very Mad ) out so need to scavenge/borrow/steal a LU from a buds boat today to get through the final stretch of big water duck ....killing me.

Update to bismuth load; the results from testing came back a bit high on pressure so wont publish those but not too high so after a chat with Mr Armbrust I'm confident that after a slight dial in on a couple details and a little more testing will yield a nice useful 16ga #BB Biz Goose load. then onto seeing what choke works best.

For what it's worth, I counted actual shot samples from RotoMetals and a couple BP samples, as follows...

RM, #size published count-actual count /oz (IMO act cnt ~equiv steel pellet)
#4 161-152 (3)
#3.5 137-137(2)
#2 87-107 (1)
#1 81-86 (<B)
#0 68-73 (BB)
#B 63-63 (<BBB)
BP same
#BB 57-57 (BBB)

Reason/plan; I'm looking for a 16ga Biz load to mimic/approximate my 10ga BBB/#T late season Steel load

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Charles Hammack
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:23 am  Reply with quote
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5/8 oz volume Bismuth .

3/4 oz volume is way overkill.

Very happy with the 5/8 oz volume and 1600+ velocity it is doing it is doing all that I ask of any load.

It also cost very little to load compared to the other types of nontoxic loads.

If I miss I simply miss more economically , the young feller's that I am working with now see the wisdom of loads that DO NOT KICK , no flinching and if they miss it is simply a miss pointed target , NOT A FLINCH that caused them to miss.

I have 3 guys that I would put up against the vast majority of shooter in skill set now the guys that can shoot will beat them because not every target presentation has been worked on .

The other 6 guys I will have them very competent wingshots within the next 500 targets.

All are shooting 1/2 oz loads in 12&16 GA , all are saving money to get reloaders .

Factory shells just aren't cutting it for all of us .

Regards , Nick
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double vision
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:26 am  Reply with quote
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That's a good concept, Nick. I always shoot my best when the recoil is lowest.
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megasupermagnum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Dec 2017
Posts: 77
Location: South Dakota

I've always been curious about a 1 3/8 oz load myself, and may get around to developing one now that I have the Pressure Trace II system.

For the most part, I believe people are correct that it would be a marginal improvement. There are some circumstances that it could be a benefit. Turkey hunting comes to mind. No you don't NEED a magnum load to hunt turkeys, but I don't think anyone would make the claim that a 1oz load of any flavor is a 40 yard capable. It is all a balancing act.

There seems to be a rumor that 1 1/8 oz loads universally pattern "better" than 1 1/4 oz loads. I don't know what better means to everyone, but I have some 1 1/4 oz loads that put more pellets on target than some 1 1/8 oz loads in my guns. I see no reason 1 3/8 oz couldn't put up even more.

Now here is the caveat, a 16 gauge will never match a larger bore, and it doesn't need to. It all depends on your needs. I mentioned turkey hunting. If all you want is a 30 yard and in gun, a 16 gauge would work phenomenally. A 1 ounce load of #5 is still a thin pattern by 30 yards, even with the tightest patterns. Even #6's is rather thin, but workable. I believe a good case can be made for 1 ounce or 1 1/8 oz loads with #7 shot for an inside of 30 yard load.

I am basing this on a number of years of my own pattern testing, although mostly from 12 gauge. Turkey hunting is unique in that I measure patterns using a 10" circle, rather than 30". The general rule of thumb is that your maximum range is that which you can put 100 pellets inside of a 10" circle. I personally believe you can fudge on this a bit, I like to see 80 pellets or more myself. 70 or less is getting to where I think a wounded turkey is a possibility. 80 pellets in a 10" circle will generally put 4+ pellets in the brain or spine of a turkey no matter what.

My longest range capable loads in 12 gauge are around 1 3/4 ounce, I usually use #5. That gives me about 303 pellets. If one were to try and get 35 yards from a 16 gauge, a 1 3/8 oz of #6 would give you about 309 pellets. A 1 1/4 oz load of #6 isn't that much less at 280 pellets, but it does make your job at the pattern board that much harder. One could also make the argument that 1 1/8 oz of #7 is 336 pellets, but does it have the energy to break a spine at 35+ yards? I'm willing to use #6, but don't see any reason to chance smaller.

Velocity isn't the answer. If we assume 1100 fps from the 1 3/8 oz load of #6 and 1300 fps from the 1 1/8 oz load of #7. What I get from KYP shotshell ballistics is 1.88 ft/lb and 1.58" gel penetration for the #6 at 35 yards. For the #7 I get 1.55 ft/lb and 1.48" gel penetration at 35 yards.

I don't see anything that would ever make a 16 gauge a 40+ yard turkey gun. I never need that anyway. But if you are like many, and just want to get all you can out of your IC or modified choke gun, I think a 1 3/8 oz of #6 is a good way to get there.

All of that said, every turkey I've ever shot has been with my muzzleloader, a TK2000 12 gauge. Every one between 15 and 25 yards.
Laughing
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Yeah, turkey hunting, at least the head shot thing, is a completely different scenario than shooting at flying game. It is the one arena where a long shot string, an efficiency destroyer on crossing targets, is of absolutely no concern at all. All of the shot will get to the turkey before he ever has a chance to move. Of course, the same pellets that are deformed by excessive setback forces also result in fliers around the edges of our patterns but that is also of less concern at typical turkey shot distances since the angle of divergence hasn't gotten out of hand yet.

Nothing will make the 16 a 40+ yard turkey gun? Not quite true. Have you seen the patterns that guys are getting with a .410 loaded with #9 TSS? It's crazy. The cost is astronomical, but considering that most of us would only need a shell or two each year, it's an option.

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megasupermagnum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:56 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Dec 2017
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That's true, there are some super dense shot out there that really changes the game. One problem though is that they are nearly all tungsten based, and as a result, none of the densest shot is safe in an older gun. I'm sure people do it, but I'd never shoot steel shot or any other hard shot in a pre-1980's gun. That's just me.

If you can shoot that stuff, then the sky is the limit.

I have not done any loading with the dense shot. My experience is lead steel, bismuth, ITX, and hevi shot.

I used to load a lot of steel shot, but the returns on investment just are not there anymore. I only load lead and bismuth now.
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putz463
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:48 am  Reply with quote
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megasupermagnum wrote:
I've always been curious about a 1 3/8 oz load myself, and may get around to developing one now that I have the Pressure Trace II system.


Still working on my 1.375 load and now that Waterfowl has closed can get back to the project. I've read some about the PT II system but it isn't clear how it's calibrated to know it's accurate. Have you played with it enough to share how it's calibrated?

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