16ga.com ~ View topic - Generations of Grouse Hunters

Gentlemen,

Our endless mountains run from Potter County, Pa down thru Pa into WVa and end down around the front part of Maryland. In our family for many generations Grouse hunting has been done predominantly with 16 gauge double guns. In our family mostly with L.C. Smith 16 gauge double guns. Other families had different American made Parker, LeFever and Fox guns, along with some fine London and German best double guns.

In the early 1800's after the last of the beautiful eastern Elk were killed off, the mountain families hunted our incredible population of Ruffed Grouse and in fact many families lived off of the small game & bird hunting in these mountains during that time. There were so many Grouse in the Pa mountains in this era that men became market hunters for the big New York & Pa cities, supplying them with Grouse to eat in many of the up scale restaurants of the day.

Our family did not participate in this market hunting, although we had friends that did. Men could make a good living hunting Grouse during this era. Our family was lucky and my Great Grandfather worked for the Railroad, driving the railroad engines, in the Pa and NY mountains, during this time. Grouse hunting was for table meat and sport to our family.

The 16 gauge gun was the gun of choice for many sport Grouse and Woodcock hunters during this time, as the saying went it carried like a 20 and hit like a 12. However there was a draw back to using a 16 gauge gun, most of the men had to roll their own shells. I can remember most all the men in our family making their own shells for hunting Grouse, myself included until RST and Poly came out with their 2 1/2" SpredR shells.

I have to agree with GBE that there were a lot of Grouse hunters during this era, however it was not the number of Grouse hunters that damaged our incredible Grouse population, it was the early no limit market shooting and later the protected avian predators, that crippled our once great Pa & WVa Grouse populations. Until Pa started its 2 Grouse limit, thousands of Grouse were supplied to the city markets and not by shooting flying, ground swatting and tree shooting were the accepted norm of the market hunters. Most used 12 gauge guns, it was not sport hunting to the market hunters. It went on even after the 2 Grouse limit for quite some time.

Our early Pa Game Wardens, like Dewey Grant had running gun battles just trying to enforce the game laws in that era. There was trouble with game poachers of all different kinds in that era, including fish poaching here in Potter County especially.

IMO many of the men using 16 gauge guns were big time sportsman of their respective era's, in fact even today one of the 1st things I do is check out what kind of gun a sportsman is using when I meet him in the woods, or back at our vehicles.
I have yet in my 50 plus years of Grouse & Woodcock hunting run across a poacher with a 16 gauge double gun either here in Pa or WVa.

There is something to be said for the sportsman using a 16 gauge double gun.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Grouse hunting with sub-gauge double guns is a time honored tradition here in our endless mountains. These guns have been handed down thru our family sense L.C. Smith started producing fine double guns. We still Grouse and Woodcock hunt with them every year.

PC/D,
Thanks for the above information, including the historical perspective of RG in PA/WV. Due to my former life as a game biologist, I am always interested in comments on long-term trends in game bird numbers. In summary, you mention market hunting and avian predators as two main factors affecting grouse numbers. I agree, both were/are major factors.

I don't know when market hunting was outlawed in PA, but for most states that occurred in the early 20th century. Grouse numbers, like quail number in more southern locations, probably continued to stay at high levels for several more decades in most areas, with most of the decline over the last 30 to 40 years. Yes, market hunting probably had an effect on grouse when it occurred, but that was some time ago.

In my opinion, there is a elephant in the room relative to grouse numbers over the long term--the intensive harvest (and re-harvest) of virgin timber as America was "built" during the 19th and early 20th centuries, which created tremendous habitat for grouse. Unfortunately, a number of factors have led to a great reduction of timber harvest in many (but not all) parts of America over recent decades. The lack of early successional forest in many areas due to the lack of timber harvest is, in my opinion, the main factor associated with the decline in grouse in most areas. For what its worth, I trapped ruffed grouse in central PA for a number of years in the mid-90s in Centre and Lycoming counties, and spent a good deal of time in Tioga county and was not impressed with the amount of early successional habitat on the landscape at that time. (I stayed on Pine Creek at Waterville!). I suspect there is even less now.

The same factors have been at work with bobwhite quail for two centuries. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, virgin forests were cut and continued to be high-graded for railroad ties and barrel staves until about 50 years ago. Expanding populations opened up land for farming, with split rail fences, weedy cornfields, burning in woodlands for cattle browse, and native grass pastures--and quail responded dramatically. When mechanized agriculture showed up after WWII with new improved pasture grasses and commercial row cropping, and the Forest Service used Smokey the Bear to teach us that any fire was sinful, quail started their dramatic decline. I still hunt the relatively few good habitats that are left in my state, and find just as many quail as I ever did, but in far fewer places.

In my part of the world, avian predator protection through law started in the 1960s. Prior to that time, almost all of the abundant small farm families kept yard chickens for food and eggs, and kept a shotgun handy in case a hawk (all hawks were called chicken hawks!) showed up. Starting about then, major commercial chicken production started up, most farm families left the farm for town, and yard chickens pretty much disappeared on the landscape. With their absence, most rural folks no longer had a reason to shoot hawks, regardless of the law, as the vast majority have no interest in game bird hunting or bird numbers. Yes, I agree that avian predators are a major issue with grouse and game birds (and the multi-state grouse project a few years back showed that), but also believe that in good habitat, avian predation is blunted somewhat.

Again, thanks for your comments. I enjoy reading them. Keep 'em coming; grouse, guns, dogs, you name it!

Every time I see your post, I remember my time on Pine Creek, the Orvis fly rod shop up the road. . . . . .

Mike

4setters,

Great post Mike, hope all is well in your neck of the woods!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Guest

Good stuff, guys. I think the main reason this place holds together the way it does is because at the heart we are all hunters who honor the past, and these 16 gauge shotguns give us a way to "go home" a little bit, if only in our minds.

4Setters,

Man I agree with your analysis, your education, background and experience are evident. Having worked with the PGC/RGS projects down thru the years and having my own forest property right up against the SGL and Tioga State Forest, I have managed my property and the property around me for Grouse and Woodcock habitat for many years now. In fact my neighbor and good friend just logged some of his property again this year, to once again make great young forest habitat, for our home Grouse Coverts.

We do have an avian predator problem even with our incredible habitat. We had 5 real nice Grouse coverts on our properties and the surrounding edges of the SGL and Tioga State forest land also. We had 3 pair of GHO that devastated all but one of our Grouse Coverts this past year. Our remaining Grouse Covert has 6 birds left in it, an we are hoping for a good breeding season this next year. Let me put this in perspective for those who have never managed Grouse habitat and Grouse Coverts.

In our 5 Coverts there were over 35 - 37 Grouse, up unit the GHO's located the coverts in our well managed forest habitat. In one year the GHO returned at night and wiped out 4 of or 5 Grouse Coverts completely. I have recently come to understand there is no habitat that can protect a Grouse covert from Great Horned Owl populations. This goes for any kind of small game animals or game bird populations.

Up until last year I mistakenly believed great Grouse habitat could protect Grouse and that they could survive and thrive. In reality once a pair of GHO's find a Grouse Covert, they will be wiped out without, human intervention.

Protecting these predator birds endangers our Grouse population, and our over all small game population in Pa. IMO the laws need to be revisited and changed by both the federal government and our PGC.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

Joined: 12 Sep 2010 Posts: 1973 Location: Maine

You're quite right about the impact of avian predators, but I remain convinced the #1 reason for no grouse is no early successional habitat.
And that, at least on state land, is the fault of the PGC not cutting trees.
A subsidiary part is fragmentation of the habitat that does exist - little pockets here and there do not good habitat make.

DaveinMaine,

I absolutely agree correct habitat is definitely the #1 factor in attaining a Great Grouse population! Proper Forest management is essential for Great Grouse populations.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

PC/Dave,

Thanks for your reply. Good information.

In my mind your first letter was probably referring mostly to hawks, but I now see that the primary issue is GHOs. They're definitely bad actors if you got a lot of them--very efficient predators.

I referred to the old remedy for "chicken" hawks in my first reply, a remedy that was common back in the days of free roaming chickens--a shotgun within reach! Well, we also had a remedy for GHOs back then too. In the 70s, my father raised domestic turkeys, and back in those days, they were put on the open range at 8 weeks of age (In our case, about 5000 at a time). GHOs had a field day on those "pheasant" sized young turkeys! Every morning, one could find a dozen or more kill sites where the owls had killed young birds. Remedy, a number 1 or 1 and 1/2 steel trap, either long spring or jump trap, on an approximately 1 foot square board on top of a 12-15 foot pole set near the edge of the normal roosting site of the young turkeys. Several were placed around the edge of the turkey range. Results were achieved in short order, and the problem was solved within a week or so. Poles were left up, but traps were removed until a repeat of the situation occurred. (Starting in the 80s, turkeys were no longer ranged outdoors, but grown out completely in poultry houses).

(Now, "foot tangle" traps are used, instead of leg hold traps, in very similar situations to live-trap avian predators for various reasons, research, etc.)

And of course, we had coyote and fox issues, but that's a different story!

The above occurred during the 70s at a time when it had become, by law, illegal to kill GHOs, along with hawks and eagles. However, times were different then, and a farmer protecting his "crop" was probably not approached by a wildlife officer in an enforcement mode in most cases--we certainly were not. That is probably not the case in this present day, as the majority of folks seem to be on the predator's side, and not the prey. And, based on that, most wildlife officers would probably write a ticket if one was reported to be killing avian predators.

Just one of the many changes over my lifetime!

Please forgive me for my current preference of a NID Ithaca!

[url=https://flic.kr/p/23Wg9FX]

[/url]20190201_151701 (3) by Michael Widner, on Flickr

4setters,

Hay the old Ithaca/NID is a great bird gun, I have a LeFever/Ithaca that is a real bird killer, the same as your NID. Never apologize for a great Ithaca double gun!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

LeFever/Ithaca 1926 - A Box Lock Bird Killer

Once a hawk gets the taste for yard chickens they just go at it until they are all gone. I lost eleven of fourteen birds in one day, most just left on the ground dead.

Saw a Alaska Fish and Game video of Golden Eagles pulling salmon from a stream, eating the sweet spot on the top of the head, dropping the rest of the fish and going after another, then again and again, A waste if beautiful fish

They ought to make protection extremists watch hours of video loops of live animals torn apart by predators, so they can witness the nobility of it in reality

Joined: 17 Oct 2019 Posts: 455 Location: New Jersey

This year alone I had two GHO fly out overhead when I located two different family groups of grouse. They’re the worst imo for Grouse. I’ve never seen a red tailed hawk in heavily wooded areas but many GHO. Whoops, I thought it was a Grouse? That probably wouldn’t work if you had to explain yourself to a warden if you did happen to mistake one for a Grouse.😉
For me the 16 gauge was made for Grouse Hunters. 12’s for everything, 20’s for quail, and 28’s for well, why not. I have owned several 16’s an am currently down to 2. One is a J. Saive “ Super Saive” o/u that’s just under 6 pounds and is almost completely scroll engraved with a solid rib, articulated front trigger, checkered butt, DT’s, and 26” barrels. And I also have a Philly made Sterlingworth with 28” barrels. I don’t Grouse hunt with dogs, I jump hunt them and for me the attraction other than the grouse of course is the guns. This year I mainly used my Iside 20 because it just works for me. A 16 may be in my future.

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 444 Location: WI

From what I’ve seen PA has traditionally done a very good job with harvest of mature forests by clear cutting, however this changed when the state decided to lease public lands for gas well and shale gas exploration. There was a lot more money available for oil and gas leases than from timber harvesting, and the gas wells closed offa lot of public land to the public. Friend of mine in north central and western PA largely attribute the decline of grouse populations to the gas well boom.

I wouldn’t even bother to hunt any upland game without a dog, for me it’s all about the dog work. Anything else is just an armed walk in the woods where you bump some birds here and there and maybe get some shots when you’re lucky. Not for me, I’d rather stay home than grouse hunt without a dog.

nj gap,

Gas drilling had nothing to due with the lack of forest management and timber cutting, your source was highly mistaken. The southern tier of Pa needed massive logging long before Fracking was ever invented, especially on the SGL and SFL also.

It is true however that it is more profitable to drill for gas than cut timber. However our PGC is tasked with managing the forest for game and hunting and still needs to cut forest to attain proper forest management, no matter how much gas is sold on the SGL.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 444 Location: WI

I know for a fact that several clear cuts on state game lands that I hunted for several years with good success in north central PA were closed to hunting when they dropped a gas well in the middle of it. So much for being public lands.

nj gap,

It is true they must set up a safety zone around the Gas wells, so that when a gun is fired, and the well has a leak any place, that the gas well will not be ignited accidentally.

Unfortunately this must have happened to one of your favorite Grouse covert. I lost one of mine in the same manner. The Grouse living around the wells will be safe for ever, at least from human hunters.

A small price to pay as long as the PGC still manages the forest property by harvesting trees as they are suppose too thru out the rest of SGL. There is no excuse for them, not to manage the forest properly.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man