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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

Dave in Maine wrote:
Brewster11 wrote:
Judging by the number of articles, books, and opinions published on the subject, as well as the numerous and seemingly endless threads here and elsewhere, it appears to me that establishing whether a British barrel is still in proof and determining adequate wall diameter (and thickness) is a very long and deep rabbit hole.
V/R
B.

Not really.
Determining adequate wall thickness is a matter of operating the appropriate tool correctly. The wall thickness is the critical dimension - if there is not enough then the gun can be considered unsafe and not suitable for shooting. How much is enough is something reasonable minds can disagree upon, and do.
Determining adequate wall diameter is not really an issue; if the gun was marked for a certain diameter it either has it or not. IF it no longer has the diameter marked on the gun, then it is almost certainly out of proof, regardless of the wall thickness. That also indicates someone has messed with the barrels at some point, which means further investigation is in order. But in or out of proof only matters when trying to sell a gun in England. It is of no import here because we do not have proof laws.
Not much of a rabbit hole, if you have the right tools.


A British shotgun remains in proof so long as the chamber lengths have not been altered and the bores are within .010 of their original dimensions. It's no rabbit hole...it's quite straight forward.

As far as shooting an in proof/out of proof gun goes, there are many English guns that are out of proof I would happily shoot. And there are English guns that remain in proof, the very light Purdey with an original MBWT of .020 that has been honed out to .014 for example...no thank you.

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

old colonel wrote:
Chicago wrote:
I recently passed on a 16 bore #1 Army & Navy for sale in England because the minimum wall thickness was below my standard.


What is your minimum standard? How did you decide on it?


For buying, it's in the .028 area for MBWT.

For shooting it's .020 and clear control over the shells that get used and specific knowledge of the pressure generated.

BTW, I use "minimum BWT" as shorthand in conversation. I have a BWT gauge and I use it. Barrels are the heart and soul of any gun and they need to be good and they need to be safe. And with vintage guns that means knowing the thicknesses up and down the barrels and whether the barrels have concentric bores or not.

But really, the vast majority of blown barrels are due to obstructions.

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

canvasback,

I have to agree with you about the J.P Sauer Guns, fantastic quality guns no doubt about it. Having carried GBE's Purdey 12 gauge in the field I can attest to the quality of the Purdey guns, simply a great piece of engineering. I also agree that the J.P. Sauer Best side lock guns are every bit as well designed and made, and in fact, they have better Barrels, nothing beats the Krupp made Barrels.

I now have a Best side lock J.P. Sauer 16 gauge double gun, that I will never sell or trade. I like it as well as I like my L.C. Smith guns and man that is saying something about the engineering design and materials of the Best J.P, Sauer double guns. Those who believe that the Germans only built large clunky double guns, have not picked up the right J.P Sauer Best side lock double guns. My side Lock 16 is actually built on a 20 gauge size frame, and the engineering is just incredible.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

#5 L.C. Smith 16 gauge - America's Best


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canvasback
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

Brewster11 wrote:
Dave,
What you relate is to me an example of a rabbit hole, involving multiple assumptions and uncertainties, with the outcome subject to individual judgments and opinions, and maybe some backtracking when new information emerges or old information proves stale.

The Brits, bless their thrifty souls, have a simple yardstick: The proof house. And bloody well they should, with all their barrel lapping and honing and sleeving and reaming, treating their guns like favorite old shoes, first replacing the heel, then the sole, then repairing the replacement sole with a half sole, then maybe the heel again, ad infinitum.

Trying to end run around their proof house after all that requires a fearless heart.

I'm not a gunmaker, or metallurgist, or gunsmith, so when it comes to barrels for me it's very straightforward: Lacking indisputable evidence of proof, if it's not mirror bright and guaranteed original, thanks and with all due respect I'll pass.

And I'm not averse to all rabbit holes, after all I shoot 16 ga., a very well established rabbit hole.

Cheers
B.


Don't know where you shop for guns but i see a ton of American made vintage SxS treated as poorly or worse. Really don't understand where you are coming from.

Not trying to be argumentative....you just seem to be describing the pitfalls of shopping for all vintage SxS, but attributing the problem to Brit guns. Not my experience, that's for sure.

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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old colonel
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:41 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Topeka, Kansas

canvasback wrote:
Dave in Maine wrote:
Brewster11 wrote:
Judging by the number of articles, books, and opinions published on the subject, as well as the numerous and seemingly endless threads here and elsewhere, it appears to me that establishing whether a British barrel is still in proof and determining adequate wall diameter (and thickness) is a very long and deep rabbit hole.
V/R
B.

Not really.
Determining adequate wall thickness is a matter of operating the appropriate tool correctly. The wall thickness is the critical dimension - if there is not enough then the gun can be considered unsafe and not suitable for shooting. How much is enough is something reasonable minds can disagree upon, and do.
Determining adequate wall diameter is not really an issue; if the gun was marked for a certain diameter it either has it or not. IF it no longer has the diameter marked on the gun, then it is almost certainly out of proof, regardless of the wall thickness. That also indicates someone has messed with the barrels at some point, which means further investigation is in order. But in or out of proof only matters when trying to sell a gun in England. It is of no import here because we do not have proof laws.
Not much of a rabbit hole, if you have the right tools.


A British shotgun remains in proof so long as the chamber lengths have not been altered and the bores are within .010 of their original dimensions. It's no rabbit hole...it's quite straight forward.

As far as shooting an in proof/out of proof gun goes, there are many English guns that are out of proof I would happily shoot. And there are English guns that remain in proof, the very light Purdey with an original MBWT of .020 that has been honed out to .014 for example...no thank you.


Concur with you read on what is out of proof

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Topeka, KS
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Old Colonel,

I do have to agree with your analysis, it's one of the reasons I sighted the Krupp made barrels on the J.P. Sauer double guns. They are some of the most high quality barrels ever made.

If the pre war & post war english guns would have had them on them, I would purchase more of the english double guns.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:40 pm  Reply with quote
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canvasback wrote:
Brewster11 wrote:
Dave,
What you relate is to me an example of a rabbit hole, involving multiple assumptions and uncertainties, with the outcome subject to individual judgments and opinions, and maybe some backtracking when new information emerges or old information proves stale.

The Brits, bless their thrifty souls, have a simple yardstick: The proof house. And bloody well they should, with all their barrel lapping and honing and sleeving and reaming, treating their guns like favorite old shoes, first replacing the heel, then the sole, then repairing the replacement sole with a half sole, then maybe the heel again, ad infinitum.

Trying to end run around their proof house after all that requires a fearless heart.

I'm not a gunmaker, or metallurgist, or gunsmith, so when it comes to barrels for me it's very straightforward: Lacking indisputable evidence of proof, if it's not mirror bright and guaranteed original, thanks and with all due respect I'll pass.

And I'm not averse to all rabbit holes, after all I shoot 16 ga., a very well established rabbit hole.

Cheers
B.


Don't know where you shop for guns but i see a ton of American made vintage SxS treated as poorly or worse. Really don't understand where you are coming from.

Not trying to be argumentative....you just seem to be describing the pitfalls of shopping for all vintage SxS, but attributing the problem to Brit guns. Not my experience, that's for sure.


Agree and disagree, yes it describes vintage gun buying challenges, however, Brit Guns and many other European Guns for that matter because of the proof system are often starting life with lighter barrels, further American guns built heavier because of both liability laws and the tendency of Americans to shoot heavier loads. It is therefore incumbent to pay attention to Barrel Wall Thickness (BWT)

Do not misinterpret my love of Brit Guns. I do like them along with Scottish, Belgian, French, and Italian Guns, no disrespect to Spanish Guns, my knowledge and first hand experience of them is less than the others

I currently own five U.K. Guns, five Belgian, three French, and two American.

Back to the question of Brit Guns. I am going to avoid digging into the high end Brit gun vs the high end same period American gun, but will focus on the mid range and lower range guns.

Typically the Brit Guns are found in amenable stock configurations. They are typically balanced well and the quality of manufacture of low end guns is still quite good. I hate to admit but American box locks lagged behind he Brits in development. It is possible to find a good Brit box lock of better quality at an entry price point for vintage Guns (1.5k to 2.5k).

Unfortunately pricing is perverse at times, then again all gun websites have and element horse dealers, used car sales, and chicanery by some sellers. That said there are good dealers, boards like this help ID good dealers, and help provide knowledge for how to evaluate a potential purchase.

Some of us traipse from gun to gun endlessly buying to find the just right gun. Some simply have too much desire (my problem). Some are able to find that gun or battery guns and settle on them using them well, and stop looking for new guns.

I encourage everyone to look at good British and other European guns as good options.

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Michael
Topeka, KS
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:46 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

old colonel,

Got to say I own very few Box Lock double guns, Classic American or Brit. I do like the LeFever Box Lock guns however, especially those with Krupp barrels.

Now I have to admit the new Parker Repro guns are mighty nice guns. However they are still Box Lock guns.

Each to what he likes Best.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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old colonel
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:44 pm  Reply with quote
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In another thread and time we can discuss the merits of different side locks.

I focused on Brit Box Locks as the choice comparison most buyers are making are between competing vintage Box Lock types.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Well folks, on my side of the equation, this is the end of "Part 1" of the English gun thread. I finally made my decision today. I looked at an awful lot of guns, English/Scottish, German, Austrian, Belgian, and Swedish. I looked at sidekicks and boxlocks. I stayed in the price range of the ill fated Parker. I considered 12 ga. guns (much more affordable in general) but decided that most of my needs for a 12 ga. amount to long shots and I already have the perfect Lefever 12 for long range upland work, so I came back to 16's (no surprise).

During this long period of "shopping", one gun was sold. Most of what I liked was English. Two German guns caught my eye, but needed way too much alteration to fit my desires...at the price. Most of the Sauer/ Sauer pattern guns have aesthetic qualities that just don't appeal to me, but there are notable exceptions. Those exceptions were out of my price range. One Austrian gun would have been a fantastic project, but was heavier than I liked. The Husqvarna offerings were just thin; there are some guns they made that I like, but a lightweight 16 example of my preferences was nowhere to be found. One Belgian gun caught my eye early, a gun that needed refinishing in nearly every way, but it had tremendous potential.

However, I kept coming back to two box lock guns. The first one is a G.E. Lewis 16 ga. with 2 3/4" chambers and 900 BAR proof. Chokes are sk & sk. 26" fluid steel barrels. The wood needs a little TLC, but the metal is very nice. It weighs 5.8 lbs. Albert Petersen's has it for sale. Gun number two is a Cogswell & Harrison 16 ga. with 2 1/2" chambers, sk & mod chokes, 27 1/8" fluid steel barrels, bolstered receiver, and weighs just over 6 lbs. Kirby Hoyt is the seller.

I bought the Cogswell from Kirby this morning. Partly due to a more useful choke combo, partly due to the unique nature of the gun, and partly due to the fact that Kirby has an impeccable reputation. I will post a separate thread with photos and further discussion when it arrives.

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4setters
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:39 pm  Reply with quote
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WC,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been looking at that Cogswell for several months now, wanting to jump on it like a yard chicken on a June bug. Were it not for my normal places to hunt bobwhites, many of which require non-tox, I probably would have beat you to it. I just didn't want to pull all the strings to deal with that issue re that gun. Now if someone would buy that little Mortimer & Sons that Kirby has. . . . . . I think I'll get on his website and see if its still available. . . . .
Mike

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:45 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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The Mortimer is still there. It was offered to me 2 days before it was listed. I had called about the W.R. Pape, which had sold the day I called. The Cogswell kept drawing my attention for a month and I knew it was there before that. The wood is rather bland (no Thomas Bland pun intended) and the forearm has been sanded one time too many, but that's okay since I think this is the perfect gun for that really nice stock blank I have been saving. Not worried about steel shot with this one, I have others for that. I figured someone from this forum had to be at least looking at the gun and was surprised nobody had taken it yet.

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canvasback
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 684
Location: Ontario

I'll look forward to seeing pics of the adventures you and Rusty take the Coggie on. Hope it works for you and provides many years of trouble free shooting. Good choice.

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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wj jeffery 16
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:39 am  Reply with quote
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Congratulations, look forward to seeing your new gun when you get it home , I have a gun reveal myself to post just haven't got around to it yet , thought I would have got a chance to shoot it first but lockdown has stopped that , I will start a new post as it's not a English gun , glad you got sorted out and hope you get on well with it.
All the best WJ.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

No actual lockdowns here, just social distancing and voluntary isolation away from other people. That's one benefit of living where there are only 5 people per square mile. You can go fishing, shooting, etc. and never get near anyone. The only major challenge has been avoiding entry into a grocery store; still haven't entered one since late Feb.

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