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< 16ga. Guns ~ Recoil springs, Rem 11, Browing A5, Square or round? |
Is there an imortant difference to wire shape? |
Nope, they shoud bothe work the same |
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38% |
[ 5 ] |
Use square wire, it is what JMB designed for, the change happened after he died. |
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Use round, it was aceptable to Remington |
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[ 1 ] |
There goes Casbro, thinking too much again. |
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38% |
[ 5 ] |
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Total Votes : 13 |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:38 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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My Remington still has a square wire spring. (new round wire spring on order) Both Rem & Browning used squre wire spring initially. Later went to the round wire springs. But since round wire of the same diameter has 27% less cross section area, they have a lower spring rate (lbs of load to compress one inch). So the gun makers used more coils to get the same pre-load. But as the two springs compress, the ultimate compressed tension is waaay different. My guesstimation, starting at a preload of 15 lbs, a round spring has a fully recoiled tension of 35lbs, a square section spring, 75 lbs.
I'm sure J. Moses Browning had his choice of spring wire shapes, and took square for a reason.
Here is a quote from a spring company "Round wire will go farther with less stress and set, but will not produce the same rate/force in the same travel. " But round has advantage in service life.
Some shooters say 'recoil light as a feather', some 'kicks like a rented mule'. These recoil operated guns ought to be the softest recoil ever. Is the difference in spring rates the reason the felt recoil is so variable?
I can definitely feel a looong slooow recoil on my square-wire 16 ga, something that I never felt on my round-wire 12. They both function fine. Now I can't wait for the new spring to get here. First, the bathroom scale to check loads/lengths. Then a trip to the range with both springs in hand. |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:40 pm
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Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 527
Location: Texas
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Casebro couldn’t agree with you more. A5/model 11 should be a soft shooter. If not something is not right. Actually bought one that guy said it kicked like mule and he didn’t want it and didn’t wanna charge someone much for something like that, it was useless. I also have a square doing 16. Never compared the recoil on springs. Can’t wait to see what you find. What’s the length of your square spring? |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:53 pm
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were
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Since felt recoil sensation is individual and often preference driven, not to mention the other factors in play....I would say that any spring consideration is an activity in search of a reason.
Which is pretty much the norm for us all during summer days.
Put in new springs, adjust what can be adjusted and simply enjoy the shuffle and the slam.
With that opinion tossed out, I will move on to analyzing a rainbow...must be some way in which it can be improved. |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:24 pm
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Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1257
Location: Nebraska
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Casebro, that will be interesting to compare back-to-back. Believe I've posted here about a guy shooting his A-5 12ga bird gun at Skeet on a squad for whom I was pulling targets and keeping score. It would not cycle 3DE 1 1/8oz target loads so I showed him how to change to the light load setup. His gun now slung empties with gusto and he was visibly moved around by the recoil. Didn't like it one bit, but his scores were legal. Major difference in felt recoil, as we all could see and he could feel, perhaps a bit of oil on the rings at heavy setting would have been the match for those shells on that day. |
_________________ Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:27 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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tramroad28 wrote: |
Since felt recoil sensation is individual and often preference driven, not to mention the other factors in play....I would say that any spring consideration is an activity in search of a reason.
Which is pretty much the norm for us all during summer days.
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I'm retired. I can do this stuff ALL the TIME. javascript:emoticon('')
I have seen recoil energy graphs from various gun manufacturers. Funny how none of them compare their latest and greatest to the antique A5. Energy being a factor of the shot load, mass times velocity squared, the area under the curve should all be the same. (That is one way to tell if the mfg is lying- his gun shows less area under the curve) An Auto-5 shoild be very low and so long it goes off the page.
Anyhow, I did a bathroom scale comparison, 16 ga square spring to a round wire 12 ga spring. Surprisingly, they both had the same tension at full recoil, 60#. But the preload of the collapsed square sample was zero, the round wire was 15#. Apples and oranges, neither was current season. But not what I expected.
If you need me, I'll be out at the mail box waiting for a new spring. javascript:emoticon('') |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:23 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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kgb wrote: |
Casebro, that will be interesting to compare back-to-back. Believe I've posted here about a guy shooting his A-5 12ga bird gun at Skeet on a squad for whom I was pulling targets and keeping score. It would not cycle 3DE 1 1/8oz target loads so I showed him how to change to the light load setup. His gun now slung empties with gusto and he was visibly moved around by the recoil. Didn't like it one bit, but his scores were legal. Major difference in felt recoil, as we all could see and he could feel, perhaps a bit of oil on the rings at heavy setting would have been the match for those shells on that day.
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The basic guns have only two settings, with and without the tapered ring squeezing the friction sleeve. Perhaps fine tuning the spring pressure with shims would help make a match, shell to damping? I think there is room for 1/2" max, maybe 1/4 shims?
And I had anither thought, back to the OP: Maybe it's not so much the spring rate but the area under the curve? Total energy abosrbed? |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:41 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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RGuill96971 wrote: |
..... What’s the length of your square spring?
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The square spring is 6 7/16". It has zero preload. Both that one and a round one from a 12ga are 60# at full recoil. |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:16 am
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Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 2171
Location: Florida
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Get a new round one and be done with it . I'm sure the old flat one is wore out. |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:56 am
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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New springs came today. Here are comparisins:
Recoil spring, old, .110 square section:
OAL, 6 7/16, 17 turns, Preload: 0, max load 60#
Recoil spring, new, . .115 round section:
OAL 8 1/2, 19 1/2 turns. preload 30# max 70#
Action spring, old, .042 wire, 10# min, 18 max
Action spring, new: .038 wire, 9# min, 11# max.
The new lighter tension action return spring will off set some of the higher tension of the new recoil spring.
The old parts, friction in light setting, worked well with some 7/8 oz loads. I doubt the same will be said for the new springs. I'll bring the old recoil spring next time, sporting clays.
While the wood was off for spring replacement I scrubbed it down with paint thinner and a tooth brush in the checkering. It brightened up quite a bit. Front end is nicer, but numbers don't match, no numbers at all. . I suspect it's been changed in the last 84 years. No brass pins, and missing a chip where one went adios. But it is serviceable.
NOT the Browning Sweet Sixteen I was hoping for, but it fits in the herd. |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:24 pm
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Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 527
Location: Texas
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congrats on the shooter. nothing wrong with model 11. Its a work horse just like the old a5 |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:22 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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Slo-mo video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aX4W4HVo_U
You can sure see the impact of the barrel hitting the back of the receiver. The is a sharp kick, at about the 5 second mark. That gun needs more spring/damper. Nothing said in the comments though.
I've wonder if that kind of actionis to blame for the 'kicks like a mule' meme? First the barrel pushes back against the spring, the whole gun moves back, pre-loading your shoulder, The, POW, the added hammer blow of the barrel hitting the back of the receiver?
Though JMB's goal was not recoil reduction, it was just to make a self-feeder. |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:41 pm
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Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 527
Location: Texas
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I’m sure you know, but there is a buffer pad on the model 11 for this. I have seen one fired without it, cracked the receiver. |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:17 pm
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego
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RGuill96971 wrote: |
I’m sure you know, but there is a buffer pad on the model 11 for this. I have seen one fired without it, cracked the receiver.
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The buffer was actually all about the notch it has. The pad stopped the bolt while the notch allowed the firing pin to protrude rearwards. Otherwise , if you tried to cycle it with a loaded round, by pushing the barrel back, the pin could set off the primer. See "Winchester Model 11 "Widow Maker".
And I couldn't find any pic of aM11 broken receiver. |
_________________ It's not how many breaths you take, it's how many times you have been breathless.
Dying with all ten fingers is like dying with money in the bank- you could have had more fun! |
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Posted:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:40 pm
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Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 527
Location: Texas
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Learn something new every day. The cracked receiver was my father-n -laws. He took it to gun smith and that’s what he told him. |
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Posted:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:06 am
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I'm glad this discussion came up because I suspect my Model 11 could use a new spring. The last time I shot a high power 1 1/8 oz load the recoil seemed more than I remembered, and it's cycling some pretty light 7/8 oz loads right now.
About the buffer. I had my M11 reblued because it had too much shallow but widespread corrosion when I bought it. The shop (Ahlman's, who should know better) neglected to remove the buffer before it went in the tank and it ended up breaking down on me at the worst time. I was in South Dakota and the bolt seized, locked wide open from buffer chunks, and there was nothing I could do about it. When I returned I took it to my Amish gunsmith who is really good with the older guns and he told me about the buffer and how it should be removed and replaced when rebluing. He had some in a drawer, riveted a new one in place, and all was well. |
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