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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Well.... from what I’ve read under 7000 for old sxs non Damascus. The RST shells I shoot are rated at 5400 psi. I’m working on a load for a 12 gauge sxs, old Stevens 235 hammer gun. I want to match that as close as possible. I think( some may disagree) that most of the old guns should stay as close as possible to 6000 psi. Makes sense to me that the lower the pressure the better for the wood especially. Guess it really depends on what the barrels are made of and who made them. My old Belgium A5’s will eat just about anything with no worries, but again if you can get the job done with lower pressure, why not. Much easier on the shoulder too.
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Swampy16
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

I use a 6300 psi 12 gauge load from the Lyman’s 5th edition that works very well. I’ve loaded and reloaded thousands of them in 2-3/4” AA hulls. I’ve also loaded it in Cheddite 2-1/2” that were roll crimped. That likely puts the pressure under 6000. They look great with the clear hull and pink clay buster wads using the clear plastic overshot card.
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

I have loaded it also. I like the RST cause they last a pretty long time and have great crimp memory. I have loaded some Cheddite hulls 2 1/2 skivved and found that when roll crimped they really don't look to good after firing. I believe its because the plastic is to thin at the top of the shell. now in 16 I have great results with 2 3/4 cut to 2 1/2. They crimp just fine without being skivved. I think I need to try some 12 gauge 2 3/4 cut to 2 1/2.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Here is my take on "low pressure" loads. with FLUID STEEL barrels....unless you have proof marks that designate otherwise.

I have a 1916 Vintage Model 12 in 16 gauge. The loads I use are the same loads that I use in my 16 gauge 1100, 870 and Citori. This shotgun has an excellent like new bore and chamber. I also have a Hunter Arms, Hunter Special, very good bore/chamber, I use the same loads as above. I practice what I preach.

My opinion:

Either you have an older shotgun that is serviceable or it is not. To put a shotgun to your face that you don't trust with a load at 10,000 PSI but you are willing to put that shotgun to your face with a 6,000 - 7,000 PSI load makes no sense to me. There is no such thing as a "low pressure" load. Even 5,000 PSI is not low pressure. If the chamber/bore of the barrel(s) of a shotgun are compromised by corrosion, modification or other damage to the point where the strength is suspect, that shotgun should not be used, unless it is re-proofed. Playing around with "low pressure" loads in an older shotgun with fluid steel barrels in good condition is a waste of effort. No where will you find a statement from any firearm industry engineer or ballistician claiming that "low pressure" loads are a good idea for older shotguns.

If I remember correctly, there was a fairly recent thread about a shotgun that came apart because of corrosion between the rib and chamber. Would anyone professing the use of 'low pressure" actually have put that shotgun to their face with a pit that large in the chamber? I think not. Again, either you have a serviceable shotgun or you don't.

Remember that this is my opinion YMMV.

I very much do appreciate that someone would use a light payload or a reduced velocity load to avoid stock damage to an older shotgun. But chamber pressure and recoil energy are two different subjects that have no correlation.

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Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Mark I do agree. Its either serviceable or not, and yes all my old ones will handle factory loads, however, like you said lighter payload to save the wood is my main concern. New stocks are expensive. The older I get the more I like the lighter payload. I don't see the need to beat my shoulder if not necessary. As far as low pressure being a waste of time is where we disagree. Maybe RST just has a sales pitch to sell more shells. I see it like the old 65 chevy, do you drive it at 100mph? It will do it, but why? so much cooler at 45mph.
Not all barrels are created equal. getting barrels re proofed is not something most( my opinion) would be cost effective, or even doable.( my opinion). Either way agree or disagree its still a better day when you got a shotgun in your hands and having fun breaking clays or putting meat on the table, that i think we can all agree on
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Mark: I have been doing some research on your post, as you state: your opinion. I should note that I am ok with different opinion's as that's what makes America great. I know your past experience, so I know you speak the truth. I am not to proud to admit that I was wrong, maybe confused, but consider it a very good learning lesson. So when credit is due I believe in giving it. You deserve the credit. I did find this article that perhaps would be of use to someone else: https://www.randywakeman.com/Why_Shotshell_Published_Pressures_are_Meaningless.htm.
This stuff with pressure, fps and recoil are very interesting to me. As i get deeper into it, some of the old myths, are just that myths. I can tell you as a youngster shooting both barrels on my grand dad's 10 gauge double was a whole lot of recoil that I only felt one time. Like I stated earlier its a leaning thing I guess. My granddad thought is was funny and never questioned if I would get hurt or not. He just laughed, picked me up and said wanna shoot her again. O how times have changed. Mark thanks again for your knowledge, keep it coming.
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3birddogs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 567
Location: wheeling, wv

pressure has nothing to do with recoil--and recoil has nothing to do with pressure! Recoil is a mathematical formula based on the velocity of the load and the weight of the
payload. Low presure is no better for 100+yr old wood, but low recoil is. Low pressure shells at 1200 fps recoil no more than standard pressure loads at 1200 fps given the same shot charge. Of course the weight of the gun is important in felt recoil.

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Swampy16
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

RGuill96971 wrote:
I have loaded it also. I like the RST cause they last a pretty long time and have great crimp memory. I have loaded some Cheddite hulls 2 1/2 skivved and found that when roll crimped they really don't look to good after firing. I believe its because the plastic is to thin at the top of the shell. now in 16 I have great results with 2 3/4 cut to 2 1/2. They crimp just fine without being skivved. I think I need to try some 12 gauge 2 3/4 cut to 2 1/2.

RST’s are Cheddite hulls. Look on the top for the stars. All Cheddites have stars pressed into them.
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

3bird- yes its hell to have to worry about a cracked stock on these old ones, sure are fun to shoot though.

swampy- yes they are. I sure like the RST shells. Wish they weren't as expensive.

how about the next topic be on perceived recoil vs actual recoil?
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

RGuill96971,

Thanks.

I never stop learning about this internal ballistics stuff, I find it fascinating.

I always do my best to base my opinions on facts. I am probably a bit on the conservative side......would never want to see someone get in trouble over something I have posted.

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Mark...You are entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts.
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:54 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1550
Location: Minnesota and Florida

You fellows really need to read Sherman Bell's articles on his experiments with strength vs. peak pressure in old guns. You can find them in old issues of The Double Gun Journal. The guns are all US-made 12 gauge doubles of late 19th and early 20th centuries, both damascus and fluid steel construction, Parkers, Remingtons, etc. -- guns in good shape, as well as guns in terrible shape - ugly, off-face wall-hangers. The guns are tested to destruction. It is really shocking what those guns withstood. 10,000 psi was not close to breaking any of them. I can't recall if Bell tested any twist steel barrels. I don't know if corroded twist steel barrels should be trusted at that level, but they are of much different construction than damascus. (They're ugly, cheap and cheap-looking anyway.)

Bell also did great comparative testing of the internal ballistics of black powder and smokeless powder loads that produced the same external ballistics -- he found no significant difference, when using powders which were normally appropriate to those loads. He worked with Tom Armbrust and he also strain-gaged various barrels at one inch increments out to about 12 inches, if I recall correctly. His test work was very good and objective -- take it from me, I spent my career as a mechanical engineer (M.S.M.E.), specializing in mathematical and experimental stress analysis and durability testing in the automotive and aerospace industries as well as in internal combustion engines.
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