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< 16ga. General Discussion ~ Belgian proofs? |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:08 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Does anyone know what the Belgians are saying when they say “Chambers proved 16/70” I ran across an interesting Belgian 16 bore and I am wondering what the proof represents. The gun is from 1943 with 2 3/4” chambers.
Thanks,
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm
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Member
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Columbia, SC
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16/70 means 16 gauge with 2 3/4" chambers. 70mm = 2 3/4". |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:51 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9464
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:23 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Thank You Gentlemen - I understood the 16 and I didn’t do the math on the 70.
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:35 pm
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Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 398
Location: Virginia
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I wonder what that gun was. Belgium was occupied by the Germans in 1943 - that was during the middle of World War II. I would not think there was much bird hunting going on in Europe them. |
_________________ C&R FFL since 2002 |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:24 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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It is a Masquelier and the 1943 comes from the sellers description. I understand you questioning the date of manufacture. I have not seen the gun, just saw it online. It is a nice looking sidekick.
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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Posted:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:33 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 9464
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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My O/U Belgian shotgun is 1945 and wonderfully made
Mike |
Last edited by skeettx on Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:36 am
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Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Glendale, AZ
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After the Liege proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified:
“The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device, lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, l2, 10, 8 & 4; 670 kg per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.”
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi maximum SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi maximum SERVICE pressure
+ 10 - 14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement
SO 16g service pressure was about 9,500 psi
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12 & 16g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Modern transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi |
_________________ Drew Hause
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:26 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Drew,
Thanks for the informative post. It sounds like the gun would work with RST shells? I would need to restock the gun so I may keep my powder dry for another English 16.
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:40 pm
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2800
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Mike,
I like side lock German/Belgian guns very much. Some very high quality double guns usually at reasonable prices. I recommend the J.P. Sauer pre war Best guns with the Krupp barrels, the 16 gauge I picked up a few yers ago is a honey and I use the 2 1/2" RST or Poly SpredR's for Grouse and Woodcock hunting. Krieghoff pre war guns are world class guns also, with these kind guns available I would pass on the unknown makers. Some were very good gun makers however.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:40 pm
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Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 381
Location: NW Arkansas
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Mike,
On many older guns one will also see 16/65 and 16/67 at times, which corresponds to a 2 1/2 and 2 9/16 chambers, respectively. If a 16 has a 16/70 chamber from the factory, it was usually produced from about 1930-35 to the present, most earlier 16s had shorter chambers.
Some European doubles also state chamber, bore and/or choke measurements in millimeters. For example, the 59 Beretta Silver Hawk that I have gives 3 millimeter measurements on each barrel just forward to the water table, 18.6, 17.0 and 16.1/16.4. Multiplying by 0.03937 gives these measurements in decimal inches: Chamber = 0.732; Bore = 0.669; Left barrel = 0.634 (Extra full ? with 0.035 constriction), Right barrel = 0.646 (Improved modified? with 0.023 constriction).
European guns are millimeter friendly. |
_________________ 16 gauges:
1954 Win M12 IC
1952 Ithaca M37 Mod
1955 Browning Auto-5 Mod
1940 Ithaca NID M/F
1959 Beretta Silver Hawk
Ranger 103-II M/F
Browning A-5 Sweet 16
Browning Citori Invector
Rem 870 Remchoke |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:57 pm
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Dave,
I think Masquelier was a respected maker and they were around for about 100 years. They produced many grades of guns and some very fine sidelocks. You don’t see too many of them this side of the pond.
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:34 am
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1973
Location: Maine
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You should be able to tell the year of proofing - the Belgians used letter codes stamped near the proof marks.
Charts are here: https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=232252
Masquelier is/was a higher-grade manufacturer. |
_________________ “A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:58 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2800
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Gentlemen,
Thanks much for the education on Masquelier, I have heard of there guns but never knew they were a high grade manufacturer. Thanks for the education.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:03 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois
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Thanks everyone for the info. I don’t think I am going to pursue the gun if anyone is interested. The gun is on the Dismal Armory website.
Good Hunting,
Mike |
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