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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Non-Tox choices for an old gun? UPDATE: ---Tested Loads----
makintrax73
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Oct 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Joliet, IL

I'll be headed to ND for sharpies and huns next month. It appears much of the land I might hunt is non-tox only WPA.

My gun is a 1920s Belgium smokeless proved 16 in excellent condition.

I always shoot RST 2 1\2 shells, but they are $65/box for bismuth Rolling Eyes , beside which they are out of stock.

Kent Bismuth is only available in No 5, 1oz at 1,300. A 1oz of no 6 bismuth at 1,200 seems like an obvious offering, but Kent apparently doesn't think so.

Any other choices? Slum it with my 20ga auto seems awfully gauche, but if forced that's my fall back. Laughing

________________________________________

Update with load tests from Precision Reloading

FIO hull - New - hand trimmed to 65mm - roll crimp with PRI crimp tool
FIO primer
SG 16 wad
390 grains - Bismuth No. 6 taken from Kent hulls
Unique Powder
________________________


19.5 grains Unique

AVG - 1,234 fps - 5,683 psi
STD DEV - 19 fps - 532 psi
EX SPR - 46 fps - 1,370 psi
_________________________

20.5 grains Unique

AVG - 1,262 fps - 6,022 psi
STD DEV - 21 fps - 220 psi
EX SPR - 50 fps - 490 psi


Last edited by makintrax73 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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double vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:16 am  Reply with quote
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2 1/2" chambers?

There is a 2 3/4" Rem hull load using Longshot on the Hodgdon website. 1200 fps @ 8500 psi.
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Savage16
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:48 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 1693
Location: Minnesota

http://www.rioammo.com/en/rio_ammunition/products/hunting_loads/bismuth
1 oz of 4 or 6s at 1200 but theyre 2 3/4. No experience with them or knowledge of $$.

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Great dog, Great friends,Great guns
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makintrax73
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Oct 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Joliet, IL

Dave Erickson wrote:
2 1/2" chambers?

There is a 2 3/4" Rem hull load using Longshot on the Hodgdon website. 1200 fps @ 8500 psi.



I would definitely consider loading some. I don't have a 16 ga loader, but roll crimper and new hulls solves that - unfortunately the price and availability of bismuth shot is a major hurdle it appears.

They are short chambers.

Rio and Backridge Ammo 2 3/4" appear to be the only ones I can find at a reasonable price. So the question becomes do I shoot shells potentially at 10,500 psi in my old time gun......I'm not a fan of this idea, but also not a fan of leaving the gun I shoot best at home.
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makintrax73
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Oct 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Joliet, IL

Savage16 wrote:
http://www.rioammo.com/en/rio_ammunition/products/hunting_loads/bismuth
1 oz of 4 or 6s at 1200 but theyre 2 3/4. No experience with them or knowledge of $$.



Appears Able Ammo might have a couple boxes. Thanks. Will have to consider it.
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Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:48 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois

Try Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI. I know they carry RST and they may have some 16 bismuth in stock (231-933-0767). RST may have them loaded before you leave. They may be $65 p/box but it will give you some peace of mind.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

If you want to reload check out Rotometals.
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

I'd like to help you but not sure I have all your needs straight.
It seems your requirements are slipping into the thread, more and more, that weren't listed in the opening post, not sure I got them all... You didn't mention you needed short shells, nor did you mention you had pressure limitations self-imposed. It makes it difficult for folks to help you if you don't state what type of shells you need with your specific issues...

1. Is your pressure issue a self-imposed thing, or is your gun in fact proofed to 16ga limits of 11,500 as your OP indicates? If you have some lower pressure self-limit, what is it?
2. What is the actual length of your chambers, I can only see "short chambers" in one reply from you, but there are several chamber lengths out there shorter than 2.75"
3. The best answer for non-tox in older guns is bismuth for availability and nice soft shot. In 2.75" chambers, BOSS Shotshells at bossshotshells.com is your best deal for 16ga bismuth. But they load to SAAMI spec. HOWEVER, they DO provide a pressure graph telling you what their pressures are, which no one else does as far as I know. So at least you can have a known pressure, which may help you if it's not at max.
4. BOSS is developing their business. In 16ga bismuth, there may be a market for shorter shells with reduced pressures, they might respond very well to you if you call them up with input.
5. currently they have
16 GA 2-3/4" MAG 1 oz. #5
16 GA 2-3/4" MAG 1 oz. #7 << but this is US sizes, not euro like Kent and Rio, so it would be the same as their #6 almost. Kent/Rio #6 is actually #6.5 US size.

6. I ran the ballistics for you between #6.5 US at 1200fps and #7 US bismuth at #1350 (Boss speed), and the penetration ranges are less than 1 yard different out around 40 yards on hun size targets. So IMO the #7 from BOSS would do exactly what you're wanting in a Kent #6 @1200fps, IF you can fit the shell in your gun.

7. Of course the best answer for you IF you have 16ga requirement of a short shell, say 2.5", AND low pressure say 8000psi, is to handload. You may think it's a lot of equipment and time you don't need, however here's some info that may help:
-- primed hulls can be shipped to you without any special hazmat issues or cost, from BPI.
-- All you'd then need to load is some powder, some wads, some shot, and some overshot cards (avail from BPI). Hulls could easily be closed with a "Roll-Turn-Over" die (non fold, a roll top or RTO die), available from BPI or Precision (better) for $25.
-- you can easily just stuff the die into any hand drill or drillpress, and close up the hulls you hand stuff. Practice on 5 empty hulls is sufficient to learn it.

8. Now, you may say you don't want to do all that in #7, BUT... another option is to purchase commercial ammo, open the fold, cut the hull down 1/4", and then roll-crimp. Recall that the chamber size means the chamber fits an UNFOLDED length hull. However, you can easily cut a 2.75" hull to 2.5" and roll crimp it, and still fit everything inside of it inside. In fact, the overall hull length will likely be the same. I would GUESS that the overall pressure would drop if you kept OAL loaded length the same. In 100% of my own pressure tests, a 20ga 2.75" folded hull that was send in with the same recipe in a roll crimp, resulted in at least 1500psi lower pressure but similar speeds.

8a. If you wanted to consider this, you would then send in 10 of these cut down and re-rolled shells to Precision Reloading for a pressure test at the cost of $25. You would then have a known speed and pressure and could safely move forward.
8b. Your 16ga short hull lower pressure needs would be met with a much bigger field of options if you did this. You would need: small knife or letter opener to pry open the commercial folds; hull trimmer, available from member byrdog here on the 16ga forum or easily self made with a razor blade and a piece of PVC; $25 RTO die from Precision; a hand drill or drillpress (Harbor Freight, $25). And the $25 pressure test.

Having done this type of stuff, I could cut down 16ga shells without dumping their contents and re-roll a box in 30 min, if I had a tested change I wanted to do. I'd just buy a large batch of shells to do, so I was sure the commercial recipe didn't change after my test. Of course just buying a bag of hulls, wads, powder, shot, OS cards, and die would be easier IMO.

Anyways, some ideas for you to help out, if you are in fact limited in length and pressure.

Oh, here is a link for you to find ammo, 16ga bismuth, using ammoseek.com. You can specify shot size and shell length too, but won't get as many results.
https://ammoseek.com/ammo/16-gauge?ikw=bismuth
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

RST has shells for old shotguns. In my opinion not a better shell out there. They are hunters and shooters. I shoot a lot of them. I have even managed to get 6-7 reloads out of their 2 1/2 shells. I just ordered 2 boxes of their spreader loads. They are expensive. Little over 50 bucks delivered, shipping has went up, but as a side note they will provide pressure for any of their shells. Just email Chris. I have never received anything but excellent service from RST.
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makintrax73
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Oct 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Joliet, IL

Dave In AZ wrote:


1. Is your pressure issue a self-imposed thing, or is your gun in fact proofed to 16ga limits of 11,500 as your OP indicates? If you have some lower pressure self-limit, what is it?
2. What is the actual length of your chambers, I can only see "short chambers" in one reply from you, but there are several chamber lengths out there shorter than 2.75"




I apologize for that. It is marked 65mm, and standard Belgium PV proofs circa 1921-1923. Which is why I use RST 2 1/2's only. My OP states original 1920's smokeless proofs, which I believe were working pressure 8,500psi standard at that time - if you can believe what you read about such things on the net.
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

Thx makintrax73. Now you've got me wanting to make some sort of a load that meets your specs, because I can see that anyone with an older gun would be limited in length and pressure.

But for commercial loads, it sure sounds like RST is the one.
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makintrax73
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Oct 2017
Posts: 80
Location: Joliet, IL

Well, I guess I'm up for an experiment. I ordered 50 rounds of 20ga bismuth, and a bunch of reloading components. If the experiment works - great. If not I'll have some 20ga left and bring my other gun.

Fortunately I have a 16ga single shot piece of junk to test loads in first. I'll load up, shoot for function and consistent velocity, then send a batch in for pressure testing.

Based on components I have, and what I could order (in stock) my plan is this:

Fiocchi 2 3/4" hull cut down to 2 1/2" in a home made jig.
Fiocchi primer
21 grains of Herco (already on hand)
SG16 wad
7/8th or 15/16ths oz no. 6 Kent bismuth taken from the 20ga shells
overshot card
roll crimp with Precision roll crimper
(this is a 1oz lead load @ 8,500psi adjusted to roll crimp and bismuth. I recognize this is a "no no", and that Herco is not ideal here)

If I can find some Longshot locally I'll buy a pound and use Hodgdon's recipe substituting a roll crimped 2 1/2 instead of a star crimp 2 3/4"

Living on the edge perhaps, but if it wrecks a $50 single shot gun no great loss.....I did order a bismuth load manual along with it. Perhaps I'll find a load with a better suited powder that is available locally. I'll check back in eventually when I figure this out.


Last edited by makintrax73 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

cheddite hull better choice.
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PatrickB
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:32 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Location: Minnesota

Your risk tolerance is higher than mine. Not sure why you just don't use the 20ga this season and be better prepared for the 16 next year. Safe with less hassle. JMO.
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AKDan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Location: Alaska

Here is one from the Precision Reloading Bismuth Reloading Manual, 8th edition. I tend to be cautious approaching loads from this manual but give it a try.

2 1/2" Federal plastic hull, paper base wad, roll crimp.
Win 209 primer
20.0 grains Unique
Remington SP16 wad
15/16 oz bismuth shot, #4 & smaller
Two 20 gauge .028 cards over shot
1241 FPS
7,920 PSI
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