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ShowMeSon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jan 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Colorado

Thank so much. I’ve been looking for a 7/8 oz load so I need to load up a few and give them a try.
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megasupermagnum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 Dec 2017
Posts: 77
Location: South Dakota

Buffer often tightens patterns. It can be tough to find load data, as it does significantly raise pressures from non-buffered loads. Most buffered loads you see are likely going to be 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz.

I had never heard of the wax trick for muzzleloaders. Another bizzare muzzleloader trick is to use a 1/2" fiber wad, soaked in olive oil, ON TOP of the shot. Presumably this allows the shot to draft the wad for a distance before fallling away. Dry fiber wads shred into tiny pieces. Soaked wads often hit the target. I don't know that you will have the room in a 2" shell, but this is how many guys get a cylinder bore muzzleloader to shoot IC or even modified patterns.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have owned a number of choke less guns/ barrels and have extensive experience with tightening patterns. Things that tighten patterns:

1) Harder shot. West Coast Magnum lead has been the best in recent years (better than the nickel and copper plate I have tested), and also steel shot. I have intentionally loaded steel shot to tighten patterns with cylinder bore guns and had very good results.

2) Lower velocities. Air resistance is over 90% of what opens a pattern up (won't get into a detailed explanation of how right now). For every amount of increase in velocity, the air resistance goes up at a much higher rate. This is great when making brush/ spreader loads but bad for tightening patterns. There is a documented correlation between velocity and pattern.

3) "Gentler" powders. Using a slower powder and giving the shot charge a less abrupt take off does help keep pellets round and round pellets fly straighter. It's all about reducing ignition setback. I have experienced great results with 800-X and Hogdon Longshot has given me my tightest patterns with 1 1/8 oz. in my 16 ga. guns.

4) Buffered loads. As already mentioned, properly buffered shot charges go a long way to stop shot deformation. This often equates to patterns being "1 choke tighter". Expect a cylinder bore to pattern like an I/C.

5) Good cushioning wad with a shot cup that holds the entire shot charge. Bore scrub of pellets above the wad makes them not round. The cushion section gets us back to reducing the ignition setback issue.

6) Avoid long shot columns. There is a point where adding more shot to the charge makes the column long enough that the setback forces at ignition deform the heck out of the lower/rear portion of the shot charge, so much so that the number of pellets remaining in the effective portion of the pattern decreases. In other words, you get a lot of fliers and a long shot string. This becomes a greater problem at extended ranges than at distances where quail are normally taken, but it is still noticeable at 30 yards.

7) Altering the barrel's internal dimensions. Depending on available wall thickness, and lightweight guns generally don't have a lot, you may be able to lengthen the forcing cones for a minor improvement in pattern and recoil reduction, but its won't be a huge difference. The other alteration, once again dependent upon wall thickness, is back boring. If you back bore and stop short of the muzzle, you can get choke. This is how guns are "choke bored" to begin with. If you can bore the barrel out by .010, this will give you .010" of choke. This is where a very experienced shotgun specialist with a good wall thickness gauge enters the picture, may get expensive.

8 ) Choke tubes. Briley is about the only game in town for real thin stuff, at least that I know of. Even so, some guns just don't have enough wall thickness to add chokes so this is a "maybe".

9) Final option? Run faster.

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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Have been trying to tighten the LB patterns in a couple of 120+ year old SxS’s (.007” and .006” respectively).
My standard clays load is 3/4 oz of 8’s in a DR16 ahead of 15.9 gr of International in a
2 1/2” Ched with Ched 209 primer. 6200 and 1150.
I’ve tried magnum shot but can’t see any difference. I do have some 800X and LS that I’ve yet to try.
I’ve wondered about BP’s CSD16 straight/solid side wad trimmed to length. Has anyone tried it?
If so, results?
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

OK, after a couple of hundred views I’m assuming no one has tried this so I just called BP and ordered a bag of the CSD16’s (and while I was at it, a bag of the PT1680’s). They are back ordered but should be in in a few weeks. When I get them I’ll load up and try a few of each and then be back with a report.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

It isn't that no one has tried it, loads can tighten a pattern a little sometimes maybe, but cylinder bore choke is a cylinder bore choke.......not much to work with.

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putz463
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:26 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2343
Location: West MI

It's worth a shot (pardon) I see patterns change, sometimes tighten but sometimes loosen going to ticker walled wads, PR's 10ga wad has very thick walls and patterns change noticeably with their loads. Gun/choke being equal.

FCF, I'm flush w/ VP80/PT1680 (same wad) and some CSD's, would be happy to mail a handful to you to get/keep this project moving. PM an address if wanting some.

BTW; did BP happen to mention if ALL their BO'ed wads will be back in stock in a couple weeks? I'm very eager to get some of their "new" BPD10's that are currently out of stock. Or does "a couple weeks" = free beer, yesterday....

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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Thanks so much for the offer, Putz. PM sent.

Regarding your BPD10’s, I only asked about these two 16b wads so I don’t know. My experience with BO’s hasn’t been great but I’m willing to try again and see.
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putz463
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:43 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Location: West MI

FallCreekFan wrote:
Thanks so much for the offer, Putz. PM sent.

Regarding your BPD10’s, I only asked about these two 16b wads so I don’t know. My experience with BO’s hasn’t been great but I’m willing to try again and see.


You're very welcome, glad to help. PM responded to, done, wads on the way.

Please keep us posted on your findings.

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Sorry, I'm a Duck Hunter so shouldn't be held strictly responsible for my actions between Oct 1st and ice up.
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Will do.
Thanks again.
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Thanks to putz’ generosity I was able to start early (BP still on back order).
The report will be in 2 parts.
First, the CSD16. The short answer is: 100% failure. No tightening of patterns.
The long report if you’re interested is as follows:
The “control” round was my standard 3/4oz DR16 clays load. I used new 2 1/2” Cheddite hulls and 15.9 gr of International ahead of Ched 209’s. I shot mag. 8’s in all the loads and individually hand weighed every powder drop to within +/- .1gr.
My 3/4 oz MEC charge bar drops very consistent shot loads of +/- 1 pellet. (I counted 5 drops).
Four variations of the wad were used. All were shot against the control round in both the .007” and the .006” barrels. The unaltered wad (solid wall) was the worst. Blown patterns all. I suspect Garhart’s mention of wad cushion (none) is the culprit.
At Mike’s suggestion, I then tried slitting the wad into 3 petals using 3 variations: 1/2 down, 1/3 down, and 1/4 down. All of these were an improvement but still of no use because of wildly inconsistent patterns.
The PT1680 wad looks promising and I’m just starting to analyze the sheets. Will post those reports in next few days.


Last edited by FallCreekFan on Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Alright, here’s part 2: the PT1680 wad.
Everything remains the same as above except for the wad. All guns 16ga.
The short answer is there was some slight tightening of the pattern in the .006” barrel (30” steel). Pellets inside the circle increased 2%.
Based on this I pulled out another more open choked double (28” twist barrels) and tested both right (.002”) and left (.003”) barrels. The results were improved with the RB showing +4.7% and the LB showing +4.8%.
As for the .007” barrel (32” twist hammer gun) the PT1680 produced the opposite result. The wad essentially produced a slight spreader round with a decrease of 4%.
The .006” and .007” barrels were shot at 25 yards
The .002” and the .003” barrels were shot at 20 yards.
Pellet counts were done by dropping the high and low and averaging the remainder.
I hope this is helpful. Based on these results I ordered another bag of PT1680’s and am going to work some more with the wad.
But remember, your results may vary, so let us know what you learn.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Easiest way to tighten patterns? Might not be a popular response, but: steel shot. I like a cylinder or skeet choke for duck hunting since steel patterns so tight. You might get nearly modified choke patterns by switching to #7 steel.

Other than that, I suggest using the hardest shot you can and reducing velocities to no more than 1,200 fps. The best shot on the market today seems to be West Coast Magnum lead. Buffering will definitely tighten patterns, but loading buffered shells is tad time consuming and tedious. Considering the amount of ammunition burned hunting desert quail species, that amounts to a tremendous amount of time at the loading bench.

I will make one more suggestion, one that has proven very effective for me when hunting quail with open choked guns. Drop back to size 8 1/2 shot and take advantage of that open bore. I did. I just returned from Arizona for the second time. The gun I used most was 2 1/2" chambered 16 choked skeet & mod. I used 1 oz. #8 1/2 loads exclusively. They did a great job and I harvested nearly 200 quail during my two stays, so I recommend this with confidence.

I used a similar setup in New Mexico for scaled quail last year. Over the years I have settled on #8 1/2 for all quail species except mountain quail (no experience with that species) in open choke guns and #8 in modified or tighter choke. This comes after using 12-28 gauges in a variety of choke configurations and trying everything from #9 up to # 7 1/2 lead on over 1,000 quail. The only problem with #8 1/2 is finding them in factory loaded 16 ga.

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John Singer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

WyoChukar wrote:
Easiest way to tighten patterns? Might not be a popular response, but: steel shot. I like a cylinder or skeet choke for duck hunting since steel patterns so tight. You might get nearly modified choke patterns by switching to #7 steel.


I was going to post this very this very suggestion.

I have a 12 gauge, Model 59 Winchester with a 26" cylinder barrel. I used it this fall with 1 oz Winchester Expert #6 steel for ruffed grouse. It was devastating to the birds. I was wondering it the pattern was not too tight at the ranges that I was shooting.

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stevesavage
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2017
Posts: 150

Anyone tried having Teague choke tubes installed to repair bored out barrels or shortened barrels? To me seems like about all that can be done to tighten chokes. Wonder about the cost?. Thanks in advance.
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