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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Reloading/ sizing striaght hulls? Heat them first?
casebro
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

MSM2019 wrote:
Casebro,

Let's go through a few things....if you have already done it/know it my applogies.

Where are you measuring the hulls? You should be as close to the radius at the rim as you can get without measuring into the .020" radius. Measuring the metal head where it meets the plastic/paper tube is misleading.

Do the chambers of your shotguns shine? They should. If not a piece of Scotch Brite wrapped around a short rod sliced on end to hold the Scotch Brite and chucked in a drill motor does the job. I use a jag and a short cleaning rod with the Scotch Brite. Use a little WD40 or other light lubricant. That will get it polished. If the chambers are pitted and rough.....time to take the gun to a good gunsmith.

The shotguns that you are having issues with, have you measured the chambers with a dial bore gauge for size and to be sure that no one has honed a belly in the chamber(s). The chambers should taper from a minimum of .745" at the very edge of near the rim relief cut to .732" just before the forcing cone. Both of those diameters can be +.005" from the figures I gave you. The taper should be very uniform with no bellies in it. The chamber MUST taper if it does not, you found your problem.

These are just a few things to check.


If it's not the hull sizing, how come virgin hulls don't stick? Huh? How come? Smile Mics, scrub/polish. been there, done that. X 5 barrels.

Whatever, I just loaded the dozen I picked out of my trash. I'll try them in my same old mal-formed and filthy chambers I had troubles with last week. Proof of my pudding will be at SBRGC, Dulzura, on Saturday. I'll be RO at the trap range, c'mon out.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Casebro, I'm not sure which sizing system you are using. I know with Mec there are presses that use an adjustable collet system and others that use the "power ring" resizing system with just a sizing ring.

In my experience I will say that I have worn out one of those sizing rings, largely due to all of the dirty hulls with mud and crud dried to them, hulls that I used to go collect at popular shooting areas before I had a good supply. I started having issues like you are, but not as severe. A new sizing ring solved it. My old worn ring wasn't getting the case heads squeezed down as tightly and when you factor in the spring back of a steel case head vs. a brass one, things started getting tight. However, I still never experienced post firing/ post expansion cycle sticking.

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

To OPs point, if you reload Herters or certain other hulls enough, say 7 or 8 times, the plastic will eventually soften and stretch and bulge like a balloon during reloading (in the plastic section, not the metal) and be impossible to either chamber properly, and/or extract. Sometimes after firing the metal head will tear off and extract, leaving the plastic hull in the chamber...in multiple different guns. The most obvious solution is to discard the hulls before they reach that point. Another solution would be using a go/no-go gauge on the reloaded shells. There may be other solutions. But it DOES happen; just reporting an observed fact.

B.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

We've had this discussion b4 .... I repeat , we've had these issues with FACTORY , i repeat FACTORY shells , primarily Fios , but also Estates and a few other similar built shells and had many , many thru out a couple flats . My Ruger Red Label has stuck the upper barrel since the day I bought it . Many guns don't particularly like 3 piece cases .

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

You all have just taught me something. Something I have long been puzzled about. You helped me figure it out!!

I just realized that I have magic shotguns, with magic chambers, and I use magic hulls and reload them in magic reloading machines. Darn ain't I a lucky guy?

Thanks!!! You folks have made my day!!

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casebro
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

16gaDavis wrote:
We've had this discussion b4 .... I repeat , we've had these issues with FACTORY , i repeat FACTORY shells , primarily Fios , but also Estates and a few other similar built shells and had many , many thru out a couple flats . My Ruger Red Label has stuck the upper barrel since the day I bought it . Many guns don't particularly like 3 piece cases .


It's not the number of arts, Feds are OK.

It's not the metal choice, Rem GCs are OK.

The leaves the choice of plastics.

All I know at this juncture is that heating the hulls allows the same setting on my Supersizer to make them .010 smaller, with less effort. This is the first time my collet has ever made a head undersized. The downside might be cracked heads from the fatigue, but it is only an extra 1 1/2 %. The mouth deaths will still kill them first.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

Mark , the biggest problem we had was 12ga Fios in my buddies back-up 1100 (his Kolar was out for it's 10k checkup . Did all the tricks and ended up giving 1/2 a flat away . Parsons used his backup 1100 and ended up giving 1/2 of his flat away of Estates .There is a reason they shoot STS at the worlds . I've had LOTS of trouble with Fios in my 16 . Your combos work and that's great . We can also say Citori's are great guns , but you can't deny the problem with FTF's , some do , some don't and the diff between the 2 might be miniscule .... CB , it does have a LOT to do with the metal , basewad and shoulder , but you can't include RGL's in the problem group , they are entirely diff thing even though they are made the same way .

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

Hi 16gaDavis,

I understand that now and then there could be an ammo issue from the factory. I do shoot a little bit of new factory ammo when I need/want hulls to reload or shooting an event that mandates new ammo, however I shoot so little of it, chances are I will never have an issue with new factory ammo.

But that is a completely different issue than this thread.

Some folks seem (?) to have a problem with reloading these hulls and some don't. No one has measured anything to find out what the real problem is.

I am not buying that the basewad compresses and gets larger in diameter. I use the same Cheddite/Winchester hulls, reloaded on a Sizemaster or 9000G that sizes them to .737" to .739". Trust me when I tell you I don't do one thing different than the machines allow. I run the machines as fast as I can, 500 an hour on the 9000G and 200 or so an hour on the Sizemaster. I shoot fairly stout loads and you know that I don't believe in low pressure anything. I don't have problems and I shoot mostly repeaters 95% of the time.

There is an issue somewhere but until someone starts measuring things and gets real numbers we will never know how to really fix the problem.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

Mark , not trying to light a fire on this . My add on to what I said was I took a bunch of cases that I reffed for a group . they had troubles , and what I did was try chambering the untouched groups shells . I could ID the problem cases . Reloaded with both the sizer and the ring and could not fix the problem . Both base wad and shoulder was stretched. I go out of my way to reshape the finished crimp end - mostly for feeding .(my 1100 at the time ) . Still had the problem . Believe it comes right off the factory loading . Random . Polished that gun till it looked like chrome . Way less troubles with Chedds , way more troubles with Fios and some Rios (not Chedds).

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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:27 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

16gaDavis,

I didn't think that you were trying to start anything.

I really have no experience with factory ammo sticking in chambers, as I have never had a problem with any of it, but as I said, I don't buy enough of it to have an opinion.

In 12 gauge I have bought either Federal Gold Medals and RIO Elite or RIO Blue target. All 3 cycle just fine. I reload them with the same result. I also get hulls from folks that don't reload, mostly Federal Top Gun with either paper basewad and more recently the plastic basewad. They cycle well.

I have to admit that I do not try to reload a hull once the crimp folds start to crack. That is usually around the 4th reload, the GM's and Cheddite's (when I get them) a little longer.

I shoot a fair amount of Sporting Clays/5 Stand. 90% of folks shoot some sort of new Reifenhauser type hull, a LOT of Euro stuff, some Top Gun, some Gun Club ( I know not Reifenhasuer). In the last 6 years or so I have not witnessed one issue of a hull stuck in a chamber. That is thousands of rounds. All kinds of different guns.

That's why I believe there is something else going on.

I have been around a lot of shooting and reloading and I have seen some crazy stuff. Sometimes the crazy stuff works, but the crazy stuff never fails to be covering up an issue. When the issue was resolved the crazy stuff wasn't needed.

In this case, without a good bore gauge and calipers, there is no way to identify the problem. Sticking cases are not the norm, something is wrong.

That's my experience, and as always YMMV.

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casebro
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

Sized to .728 after heating with boilng hot water. Win Super X (Cheds) Waa100-16 clone, 20gr Green Dot. They fell right into the filthy mal formed chambers. Smile Flew right out of the Rem 11, fell out of the 1934 Stevens 315 SxS, Mic shows .740", they shrunk away .005 from the chambers. I just resized 3, mic .730. Some once fired Fiochhi, same load, mic .747 though they did fly right out on ejection too.

So, 'hot sizing' works. And heat is probably not required every time either.

Case closed.

Related: How about hot sizing loaded rounds? I know guys who routinely Super Size promos to improve ejection, How hat is too hot for loaded rounds? ( only 1/2 box, I'll probably pick them apart)

And I told the saga to one shooter today who then gave me 30 once fired 16ga Feds w/ fiber base wads. He'll trade me more for my huge stash of Activ 12ga hulls and wads.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Boiling water? Two concerns. What if primer isn't sealed as well as we think and water gets in? Secondly, warnings on primer packages say not to expose them to heat. I don't think I would press my luck on this one.

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casebro
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

I put hulls in a dark plastic bag (dog poo bag) and left it on the dash of the truck, parked facing the sun. Too hot to hold in a couple hours. Sizing was much less effort to beyond the lower limit. And no water to remove before it gets in the powder.

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Sure glad I don't have to resort to dog poo bag for my hulls. Think I would find a new hull.
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casebro
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:56 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 152
Location: San Diego

RGuill96971 wrote:
Sure glad I don't have to resort to dog poo bag for my hulls. Think I would find a new hull.


What hull would that be? Nothing is available now except more of the same cheap stuff.

I suppose a pickle jar in the sun would work as well as a plastic bag on my dash.

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