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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Update: after nearly 2 months waiting on the BP back order still nothing. The PT shipment to BP did come in but contained no 1680’s. So hopefully the next shipment will. Waiting on the the Ched 209’s till the first of the month anyway.

They’re calling for up to 36” of snow here on the plains this weekend so wouldn’t be at the range anyway. Wink


Last edited by FallCreekFan on Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Swampy16
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

Pattern some RST’s. You may be surprised. Low pressure ammo tends to do much better in open chokes.
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Thanks, Swampy. Since my SxS’s are 100+ years old and the hammer guns are 120-130 years old (I do have a couple of “new” doubles that are in their 80’s Wink ) I don't have any that I would shoot steel through. Everything I load and shoot is in the 5000-6000 psi range already so I’m very limited in what else might help tighten patterns. The PT1680’s showed some promise so I’m going to work with them a bit more and see what the best is that I can get with them. I’m certainly open to any other ideas you and the 16ga group may have. Thanks.
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duckdup
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 258
Location: West-central Missouri

Has anyone tried a wrap inside a PT1680? Many decades ago when my FIL & I started reloading steel and the steel components were rare, we put Alcan Kwik-Serts inside win 114 wads to keep the steel from pushing into the soft petals. It worked but also made a slight improvement in patterns (IC to SKT2). Wonder if that would work in a cylinder bore with soft shot & buffer.

Been away from shooting & hunting for a while. Happy to see this group is just as helpful and friendly as ever...

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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

As I stated earlier in this discussion, shooting 100-130 year old doubles with a mix of twist, damascus and fluid steel barrels I'm precluded from tightening patterns by loading steel shot. I've tried a number of other approaches mentioned here but have only had minimal success with one load (PT 1680 mentioned earlier).

Over the summer I've been working on a different approach and have finally had success. I'll pass on the basics here for those of you in similar circumstances but be forewarned: it brings back meaning to the term handloading.

Using the same control load that I mentioned last January i.e.
15.9 gr of International in a
2.5" Ched with Ched 209,
3/4 oz of 8's in a DR16 for
6200 and 1150,
I changed one variable, the wad. I replaced the DR16 with a CB 100 16ga wad flaring the powder cup and trimming the petals approx. 1/8". I then separated the shot cup from a CB 1034 28ga wad trimming its petals approx. 1/8” and inserting the 3/4oz 28 ga wad cup into the 1 oz CB wad. Using this wad-in-a-wad I loaded the round exactly as the control round.

I created two variations of this round: one with the 28ga wads' petals untaped and one with the petals taped. I've shot them both through 3 different guns. After analyzing the pattern sheets, here are my results.

(Results updated 4 May ‘23)

32" twist barrel choked .007" - % of shot inside 30" circle @
……… 25 yds
control round - 71%
taped round - 76%
untaped round - 81%
Change - +10%

……….30 yds
Ctrl - 58%
Untaped - 67%
Change - +9%

………..40 yds
Ctrl - 41%
Untaped - 40%
Change - -1%


30" fluid steel barrel choked .005" - % of shot inside 30" circle @
………..25 yds
control round - 80 %.
taped round - 88%
untaped round - 91%
Change - +11%

…………30 yds
Ctrl - 68%
Untaped - 76%
Change - +8%

………….40 yds
Ctrl - 46%
Untaped - 49%
Change - +3%


28" twist barrel choked .003" - % of shot inside 30" circle @
…………..20 yds
control round - 82%
taped round - 83%
untaped round - 93%
Change - +11%

……………25 yds
Ctrl - 77%
Untaped - 83%
Change - +6%

……………30 yds
Ctrl - 59%
Untaped - 66%
Change - +7%

…………….40 yds
Ctrl - 40%
Untaped - 44%
Change - +4%

Since the taped rounds tightened the patterns LESS than the untaped rounds I stopped preparing and testing taped rounds.


I hope these results will encourage some of you to experiment for yourselves and see if there might be improvement for you with this approach. Wink


Last edited by FallCreekFan on Thu May 04, 2023 4:13 pm; edited 4 times in total
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putz463
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:50 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Posts: 2343
Location: West MI

Interesting stuff, glad it worked out for you. For the sake of an apples/apples comparison; why the change in distance for the last gun? surprising the longer tighter choked barrel shot more open from the next shorter less choked one, you'd think the results would be inverse.

By and large, this again proves that one can talk and think about loads, barrels and chokes all day but until you do some printing it's difficult to predict anything.

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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:54 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

Ref: the 20 yard barrel, I shot the control rounds a few months ago and my best recollection as to why I shot it at 20 yards was that when I shot it at 25 the patterns were so open and patchy that I moved in 5 yards. As a result, I then had to shoot these “constrictor” rounds at 20 yards so as to have an apple to apple result. I may go back and re-shoot all the rounds at 25. If I do, I’ll post the results.

And why the longer tighter choked barrel shot more open? It’s one of those interesting dynamics about this effort/hobby that keeps us scratching our heads, sharing thoughts and theories and returning to the bench. We remove all the variables we can but there are still unique factors at play with each gun that impact results. My first thought is that I need to go back and check bore diameter on this 1899 hammer double.

I’m just really happy to finally find a solution for these older barrels that has given me consistent results across different guns and I hope it opens a door for others who love to shoot these old classics that aren’t choked exactly the way we’d like.
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FallCreekFan
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 4:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado

I have continued to test and refine this “constrictor” load to tighten patterns in more open choked barrels and have updated the above chart with the complete results.

Since the taped wads were less effective - across the board - at tightening patterns than the untaped ones I discontinued their testing. I even tried double taping the 28ga wad petals but they were no more effective than a single wrap of tape. In every application the untaped wad was more effective.

On the 28” barrel I kept the 20yd results but also kept my promise and shot and recorded control and constrictor rounds at 25 yds.

I hope this data may be of help to some of you with older guns.
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Builder
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 3:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Northern New Jersey

Instead of scotch tape try air conditioning duct tape. Very strong adhesive and very thin. The stuff I have is shiny silver with printing on it. Not talking about conventional duct tape which is thick and a dull grey.

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