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<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Roll crimp patterns blown
Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:44 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

Anybody ever had a barrel that just wouldn’t pattern a roll crimp. This one I just got back refuses to throw a nice pattern with os card. Only has slight pitting very slight. Missed quite a few doves first trigger second barrel my normal frequency (not a great shot anytime) so I knew something was wrong.
It does pattern decent with cheds. Kind of a bummer I made 4 cases of 2.5 roll crimps that are soft enough for 100 year old sxs’s and operate my a5s also but my new best friend won’t pattern. This gun is 2.75 also may contribute?

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Jta5er:
Need more info: what load you using and what process if your loading fiber wads. Have you tried 2 1/2 fold crimp? Would help if you would post some pattern results
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

I used ched 2.5 and Rio hulls n209 primers , bp sporting wad 7/8 and 15/16 unique universal 6s 7.5s with overshot card. These reloads worked great in my other guns. After I missed a lot with first shot(.017 choke) and hit many of the same birds with 2nd shot (.025), I patterned gun with 7 shots out of each barrel and I could throw a football through right barrel patterns but left was normal.
Loaded some 2.5s with 2 grains less powder and fold crimped and got good patterns out of both. I haven’t patterned 2.75 shells yet, since half of my guns are 2.5” I load short almost always. Lately I have used a roll crimp tool to clean up my ched star crimps and they look and cycle great through a5s just as well as the roll crimps do.
I have 1000s of rem wads 1 and 1 1/8 oz I may flare them and try in some of my clear primed Rio’s with a ounce of shot. How much negative effect do you think shooting 2.5s in 70mm chambers have? I personally never noticed but most of my 16 sxs are choked extremely tight .020-.042. Thanks in advance

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Jta5er: I shoot 2 1/2 shells in my 2 3/4 guns all the time and I never notice any difference. I have never patterned any to see if there is a difference but it’s on the list to do. I have read that some get blown patterns with overshot cards, just never seen it myself. If you get good patterns with fold crimp loads out of that gun then looks like fold crimp it is. If the pits are not that deep perhaps a barrel hone would remove them and you would get better patterns if you wanna roll them. I have some loads to pattern tomorrow. They are 2 1/2 paper, SG16 and 1 oz #5 and roll crimped. I wonder if a 1 oz load would make any difference?
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Swampy16
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

Are you certain there isn’t an issue with the barrel?
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

Yes no problem with barrel it patterns well with factory 1oz 2 3/4 and 2 1/2 rsts.
I just reload lots of 2 1/2s since i shoot mostly 16ga. 4 boxes every 2 weeks most of the year. Plus I give a case or so a year to friends and family that shoot or hunt with me. I will switch over to 15/16 ched fold crimps and finish with roll crimp die it makes all the lumps disappear and really smooth shell for both auto and double. I took apart rst ched and looks to be the exact load I make with a full 1oz. Same hull,wad primer and even powder is red flake same grains as my universal. I should just buy gaep finish die but the roll die I have works very well on ched and Rios. I shoot quite a bit of roll crimps and have patterned lots of them in other guns and always had good patterns. I had heard of blown patterns with os but never had seen one till this. Just one of my many 16s. I did have bad patterns with factory felt wad shells in my drilling but that was 20 years ago. I will still shoot roll crimped shells just not in this gun.

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Jta5er:
Just curious about this issue your having. How far is the shot level above the wad or is it? How deep are your crimps?
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:37 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

Lots of shot above cup in a bp 16 sporting short wad, that was the reason I thought to try flaring a rem sp16 wad in a Rio since all shot ends up in wad. I have loaded some of those with #6s looked good but haven’t patterned them yet. I even shook them around and no powder migration. Also loaded 16ga rem hulls with 7/8 and r16 haven’t patterned in this gun yet but patterned well in my a5s. I shoot mostly .010-.013 chokes in a5s although I have a dozen or so barrels with all levels of choke. I buy and sell them that’s how I paid for most all my guns.
I do like my 16s that’s why I’m here Very Happy.


One more project on the way

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Nice collection. I like the straight stock auto 5 on the bottom. What year is it? I would be curious how the SG-16 wad would pattern in your gun with a roll crimp?
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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

That is a 1927 sweet 16 prototype/ lightened model. The sg16 wad patterned well in all my other guns but that sg16 and 16 short is the one with blown pattern in this double. If you meant r16 wad I will be trying those in it next. Crimps on ched reloads with sg16 short and 15/16 are normal. I have cut sides of loaded red and purple hulls to view how compressed the wad was and liked the short version with 15/16 better than the factory rst 1oz I cut open, so went with 15/160z. But honestly rio with Remington wad crimp is deep but works and didn’t want to change press, it took me a while to get ched fold crimps where I wanted. But I haven’t tried Remington wad or hull with roll crimps in this latest Record (Belgium German collaboration gun). I sure like the way that gun looks and feels but unfortunately I shoot its 12 gauge brother in first pic as well or better than any shotgun I have. I have some nice odd/ rare 12s but I just love the way a 6-7 lbs 16ga gun handles and carry’s. It’s just the perfect size to fit in your front hand with a sxs.
Prototype is being refinished as close to original as possible also found first year 1929 a case to refinish to put it in, will post pics next year when that project is done. I have 5 shotgun projects going on all but that last suhl gun should be done by next Christmas. So busy at work it’s easier to hunt guns than birds hopefully next year will be different, praying for semi retirement. I may hunt birds 10 times a year locally.

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

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putz463
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:38 am  Reply with quote
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Location: West MI

Interesting one. I pattern and shoot a lot of roll crimps and have never seen any appreciable difference in patterning in comparison to fold crimp shells. Is it possible to retrieve a couple/few wads from each barrel of that gun? studying them side-b-side might give some insight to whats going on in the chamber/cone/barrel/chokes. When I want to look at specific wads shot from specific barrels or guns (I shoot mainly O/U's) after a patterning session. Upon loading I mark the bottom of the shot cups with different colored sharpie markers and relegate the colored shells to specific barrels. I know, sounds anal, but after having absolute fits with RSI wads a few years ago I went to the nity grity to understand exactly what was going on, thus the color coded wads. The difference ended up how the wads were acting in the 3 differently bored cones and barrels of a Browning SA, Remington SA and Italian O/U's.

Is the barrel that's shoots well pitted too??

Have you mic'ed the whole barrel, albeit difficult with pitting, is it possible it's dramatically over or under bored?

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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

I have guns with some pitting more than this barrel and never had problems with roll crimps. This bore is same as other side around .665 with less choke. I will try some other loads with os card, but fold crimp shells pattern well. Just was surprised with roll crimp problem. Always thought it was bologney when I heard of blown patterns with roll crimps, it’s just rare not fiction. I have a feeling now that roll crimp depth could be a factor and I will definitely test. I had loaded some 1950s Winchester paper hulls with r16 wad 7/8 oz and green dot that were the cats meow but I didn’t have much to roll. These cheds and Rios had more left to roll. But that didn’t matter on any of my other guns. Actually like the patterns in the sxs better. Looked to be more open and even than most.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

there's only 2X I've ever had that sort of thing happen . A really tight full choke that didn't like that sort of hodge podge wad combo etc , and I literally had a Herters wad disintegrate and throw cofetti everywhere . (including the shot) .... your anomaly just happens occasionally in shotgunning !

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Jta5er
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 266
Location: Ky

After adjusting my standard crimp 2.5” loads and pattern testing over a dozen I have my load worked out with a decent crimp and pattern. What I did also notice is this double is regulated to shoot poa at 25 yds. At 35 yds poi is about 5” to inside on both barrels. Never noticed this with my other sxs’ s , I almost always shoot patterns at 30yds because I figured most all my upland shooting was there or closer. Think I will be using my sweet 16 a5s for the rest of my dove hunting if I’m not shooting over decoys or water. This gun is still a wand even with 30” barrels but not a 40 plus yard dove gun.

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