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Joined: 31 Oct 2021 Posts: 7

I grew up learning to wingshoot with my grandfathers mod 12 16 gauge and that gun will never leave me. I started having ejection issues that I was never able to resolve by replacing springs or other parts. It's almost as if the fired hull is a tiny bit too long for the ejection port. The gun was manufactured in 1934, and is stamped 2 3/4. Any ideas? This began probably around 2005.

One has to just about shoot the Remington Game loads if you have that problem as they are just a tad shorter over all after firing. Some of those guns will kick out just about anything but some wont. And there isn't much difference in them either.

Griff

I shoot 2 1/2 inch ammo in my 16 gauge Model 12.
Mike

Joined: 31 Oct 2021 Posts: 7

sounds like a 29/16 gun ... what Stack and Skeettx said . Trouble could be finding those shells right now . If you reload , either use the RGL's or nick a 1/16 off the other cases to shorten them JUST A PINCH !! .... ( hey Stack , how's it going in Missouri land !)

It's not a 2 9/16 inch gun if it is from 1934. They changed to 2 3/4 in 1927. The OP said it was marked 2 3/4.

To go to 2 3/4 inch, Winchester simply moved the ejection port forward about 1/8 inch and put a bigger radius on the lower front corner to hide the lower front edge of the bolt, which otherwise would have been exposed by the re-positioned ejection port. They did not lengthen the ejection port, but just moved it forward. The only other thing they did was to put a little angle on the inside of the receiver just inside the front of the ejection port over to the cartridge rim recess at the chamber mouth. This gives the hull mouth a bit more clearance to tilt out on ejection. The small-action Model 12s -- 16, 20 and eventually 28 gauge -- were always marginal ejectors of case lengths of a full 2 3/4 inch. They were designed for the 2 9/16 inch 16 and the 2 1/2 inch 20. The earliest 28 gauges came with 2 7/8 inch chambers. I have always wondered how they were able to handle that hull in that action. I do not have one of those early 28's to inspect and see what Winchester did. In any case, it helps to shuck the 16 gauge Model 12s sharply; that will usually get the case mouth to slip by the little bevel/angle described above, but not always.

Here's why: If you measure older 2 3/4 inch 16 and 20 gauge US-made hulls, you will find they are about 1/16 to 1/8 inch shorter than 2 3/4 inch. Now, most hulls are made in Europe, or to European metric dimensions: 70mm and 65mm are typical. The 70mm hull is a shade longer than 2 3/4, and these will often hang up in the 16 gauge Model 12 2 3/4 inch guns. Hull lengths still vary, manufacturer to manufacturer, batch to batch. Modern day Remington Game Loads (RGL) are about 67 to 68 mm (2.638 to 2.677 inch). That's about the same length as old Remington/Peters and Winchester/Western 2 3/4 inch hulls always were. That's why you almost never heard of this ejection problem until these modern times.

So if you have ejection problems with your 2 3/4 inch Model 12, first make sure your ejector is a good one. That's a Model 12 weak point. The little leaf spring will sag from fatigue, and there is a lump on the "blade" of the ejector that can cause ejection problems if it has been rounded off by wear. That "lump" catches the hull rim and tilts the hull out of the ejection port. Then make sure you are not being too delicate with the "shucking". Failing all that, shoot RGL's or 65mm Euro-hulls. The 65mm Euro-hulls have plenty of room inside to contain even heavy loads, though you might have to fiddle with the wadding to get the fit right for the very heaviest loads. You can also trim 70mm hulls a little. Experiment with what length works for your gun.

Cheers!

As Detective Columbo would always say, "Just one more thing --"

You can get inside the action and polish that little angle/bevel I spoke of. I discovered this feature when converting a 2 9/16 inch Model 12 16 ga. to 2 3/4. I had to grind that bevel in with a Dremel tool to get the gun to eject. It's all inside the receiver; it doesn't show at all on the outside. It doesn't affect the shape of the front edge of the ejection port. Once I had it working, out of curiosity I dug out one of my 2 3/4 inch 16 ga. Model 12's. Sure as hell, it had the same feature I had just ground into my converted gun. So that's the way Winchester did it. I should think if that little bevel was polished a bit, the 70mm hulls would slide right by. They do on my converted gun.

I guess I wouldn't have to mention this, but please disassemble the action all the way down to the main receiver piece, so you can thoroughly clean off all the metal and grit particles that result from any grinding. You don't want any of that stuff in there, so don't shortcut this procedure.

Cheers!

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 817

Maximumsmoke.
At one of the shoot for cancer I learned something about the mod 12 I never new. One of the top dog shooters that shot for federal at ata shoots always have special nostalgia mod 12 only shoots a few times a year at different clubs in the area. He is a mod 12 specialist I would call. When he has on of the nostalgia shoots he tells shooters if the have any problems with their mod to bring them to the shoots and if he can fix them their he will. He also values their mod 12. Before the regular shoot begins he give a seminar on the mod 12. During the last shoot this fall he explained to everyone that do not repeat do not oil the inside workings receiver. If you have then take it apart and wipe it as dry as you can. Reason the mod 12 tolerances were designed so close that oil will capture grit and dirt and cause critical wear in some areas. Winchester designed that for that purpose.
Well just always thinking of doing the right think turns out wrong.Go figure. Bill

Hammer Bill --

Not using lube on metal parts that are intended to slide and guide on each other does not make sense to me. I lube my model 12's just like any other gun I have -- sparingly and only in the right places. Some folks hose their guns down till they drip. Not me.

The point on over-lubrication is a good one, though. Lubrication of any moving parts where the surfaces are not sealed from contamination is always a trade-off between how much is beneficial but not enough to hold abrasive dirt. All gun actions have these same problems. The answer is just enough lube in only the right places (which is a very small amount, actually), keeping the sliding/rolling surfaces as clean as possible in use, and an occasional solvent strip-down and "oil change".

Some surfaces, if left without lubrication, will gall. Galling is the friction micro-welding and then tearing apart of the surfaces involved. That's a lot worse problem than wear caused by abrasives held by the oil. Some metals gall more easily than others. Stainless steels are some of the worst for galling. Fortunately most guns don't have much stainless in them, but I've seen plenty of galling on the forend iron joints of un-lubricated break-action guns which have not been made of stainless steels.

Best Regards,

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 817

Maximumsmoke
I do agree with you. Especially when your rubbing to parts of metal together that is the same material and hardness. I thought about that later but I never over lubed anyway.
Abrasion was a big part in the medical device industry when two parts worked together. So parts of the same material were made not to fit perfectly in the wear areas. Reason so body fluid would supply the area for lubrication.

Bill

hey Stack , how's it going in Missouri land !)

Snow up the waszoo

Joined: 31 Oct 2021 Posts: 7

do oil the little FE tab that actuates the bolt travel and a drop on the rails . Say you are shooting trap , about every 5th shot , I wipe the recess the bolt latches into . that's the critical bugger . Say you shoot skeet and are in the habit of 1/2 shucking the gun hard to catch the empty - you will do what Max sez about micro welding/wear , and can wreck a M12 in a wkend !! Been there , done that ! .... Stack , wazoo worth of snow/cold here this yr too !

Joined: 01 Jun 2021 Posts: 6

I’ve had the same ejection problem with my Model 12 16ga. It’s an older model, from 1916 if I remember right, but it has 2 3/4” chamber stamped on it. (I’m guessing that may have been a factory conversion later on? Read something about those somewhere but not entirely sure.)

I stocked up on Herters 16ga shells when I could find them at Cabela’s last year and they cycled fine in my Remington but not in the Model 12. I have some new 2 3/4” Fiocchi field loads though and those run perfectly in my Model 12. If you’re able to find some of those they may be worth a try.

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 45

Switching from Cheddite to RGL's cured my M12 ejection problems. Cheddites are regulated to the Citori now.

John