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Aurelio Corso
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196

Been looking for a new 16 for pheasants and grouse.you guys have a lot of experience and could give me some ideas as chokes,barrel length and stock dim.I have been looking at foxes,Parker’s,LeFever’s old pre war German guns.Also what weight range should I be looking for.........Thanks Aurelio
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

This all varies...tremendously. Stock dimensions are whatever fits you and not someone else. If I can naturally mount the gun with my eyes closed, then open them and have my dominant eye lined up squarely behind the rib, the gun fits. If not, it's either time to modify the stock or look for a different gun.

Barrel length is a subject of much controversy. A lot has been written and to be honest, I think a lot of it borders on B.S. Oh, it all makes sense one way or other, but I find that it is the least important factor. Far more important is barrel taper/ contour and how the weight of the gun is distributed between one's hands. Barrel profiles are used to alter handling characteristics of the gun and when carefully chosen enable a gun to handle well, almost regardless of length. Either the gun swings well for you or it doesn't. Guns that swing well for me don't necessarily swing well for my 7'0" friend who once played pro basketball or my friend who is only 5'0" tall either. When a gun feels right to you, ignore the barrel length. I shoot well with my 870 Special Field with a 21" barrel, my 10 ga. O/U with 32" barrels, and a variety of guns in between. Bottom line, find what feel good to you.

Weight? This falls into the same category as barrel length. I know what I like, and it's a light gun. My favorite 16 ga. weighs 6 lbs. 1 oz. Some guys here don't do well at all with a gun that light but can really clean house with a 7 lb. gun. It all depends on your physical stature and shooting style.

Chokes are simple enough. When birds hold well and shots are close, skeet and imp. cyl. are your best friend. When birds lose their manners, as wild birds are prone to do once harassed a few times, imp. mod or full can be a wise choice. I will say that I can deal with a tight choke when birds flush close (did that this morning) but can't make a skeet choke reach 50 yards when needed. If I only had one gun for everything, I would want a modified or imp. modified choke and then use spreader loads for forest work.

One final bit of advice. In the price range of guns you are considering, don't overlook British guns. The handling characteristics are amazing. The bad part? Most will have 2 1/2" chambers (many of those other guns you mention may have short chambers too). If you load your own ammo, it's not a real concern. If you buy factory ammo, it could be a problem until RST can get enough components to get going on 2 1/2" ammo again. Also, a lot of English/ european guns can't be safely taken out to 2 3/4" chambers. A few of the American guns also have steep enough tapers in the chamber region so as to not be candidates for lengthening either, although a great many can be safely lengthened.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

This might be better posted in the General or Gun sections to get more responses.

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Aurelio Corso
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:19 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196

I messed up meant to post under gen.You brought up a lot of good points.I had ordered a sauer but cancelled it due to no cast off.I found 2 guns that might fit Arrieta sxs 16 ga.just under 6 and a Rinzzini 2 barrel set 20 and 28ga 6.6lbs both guns have a 1/4 cast off.I really like my very early 1900’s sauer hammer 16 but under 6lbs is brutal with federal pheasant loads need some RST.
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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 27 Jun 2012
Posts: 1111

Cast is one of the easier things to correct through stock bending. If the other dimensions are correct, it is generally dirt simple to put in up to 1/2" cast through bending. I require about 3/8" cast off on most guns to shoot well and set up a stock bending jig to do my own stocks. I've only encountered two stocks that would not accept a bend or keep it once it was put in.

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Swampy16
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Posts: 453
Location: New Jersey

If it’s your first sxs I’d look at something new, preferably a FAIR Iside.
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Aurelio Corso
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196

Riflemeister.when you shot a gun with no cast how far to the left was the center of your pattern ?.I have 3 shotguns with no cast and at 20 yards the center is about 4” to the left so how much cast off should I be looking for?
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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:04 am  Reply with quote
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I use the Churchill method of determining cast requirements. That means setting up a patterning sheet at 16 yards, do a number of practice mounts to the center aiming point until you are satisfied your mount is repeating well, then mount and fire a shot, Repeat that procedure several times on the same patterning target. study the target to determine the center of the pattern. The correction required is 1/16th inch of butt stock movement for each inch the pattern center is displaced from the aim point.

In your case of 4" of at 20 yards, that would equal 3.2" at 16 yards, so somewhere between 3/16" and 1/4" would be your additional cast. Most guns come with some cast off, so your figure is in addition to what it came with. The eye position is somewhat froward of the butt where measurements are taken, so your example would probably require an additional 1/4" measured at the butt.

The shape and thickness of the buttstock also influences the total cast required, so don't think that getting one gun fitted properly means that every gun will work with the same dimensions. A smaller gun such as a 28 ga or ,410 SXS will require less cast off than a 16 ga or 12 ga just because of the smaller stock.

I didn't intend to write a book to answer your simple question, but the results you get at 16 yards with a gun depends greatly on how much cast the gun came with.

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Aurelio Corso
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196

Thank you so much I have been seeing a lot of guns with 1/4 cast off and one with 3/16 that I was thinking about.I can hit with a neutral cast but tilt my head to the right and find it a little uncomfortable ,thanks again you have been very helpful.
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Aurelio Corso
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 196

Thank you so much I have been seeing a lot of guns with 1/4 cast off and one with 3/16 that I was thinking about.I can hit with a neutral cast but tilt my head to the right and find it a little uncomfortable ,thanks again you have been very helpful.
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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

WyoChukar wrote:
This all varies...tremendously. Stock dimensions are whatever fits you and not someone else. If I can naturally mount the gun with my eyes closed, then open them and have my dominant eye lined up squarely behind the rib, the gun fits. If not, it's either time to modify the stock or look for a different gun.

Barrel length is a subject of much controversy. A lot has been written and to be honest, I think a lot of it borders on B.S. Oh, it all makes sense one way or other, but I find that it is the least important factor. Far more important is barrel taper/ contour and how the weight of the gun is distributed between one's hands. Barrel profiles are used to alter handling characteristics of the gun and when carefully chosen enable a gun to handle well, almost regardless of length. Either the gun swings well for you or it doesn't. Guns that swing well for me don't necessarily swing well for my 7'0" friend who once played pro basketball or my friend who is only 5'0" tall either. When a gun feels right to you, ignore the barrel length. I shoot well with my 870 Special Field with a 21" barrel, my 10 ga. O/U with 32" barrels, and a variety of guns in between. Bottom line, find what feel good to you.

Weight? This falls into the same category as barrel length. I know what I like, and it's a light gun. My favorite 16 ga. weighs 6 lbs. 1 oz. Some guys here don't do well at all with a gun that light but can really clean house with a 7 lb. gun. It all depends on your physical stature and shooting style.

Chokes are simple enough. When birds hold well and shots are close, skeet and imp. cyl. are your best friend. When birds lose their manners, as wild birds are prone to do once harassed a few times, imp. mod or full can be a wise choice. I will say that I can deal with a tight choke when birds flush close (did that this morning) but can't make a skeet choke reach 50 yards when needed. If I only had one gun for everything, I would want a modified or imp. modified choke and then use spreader loads for forest work.

One final bit of advice. In the price range of guns you are considering, don't overlook British guns. The handling characteristics are amazing. The bad part? Most will have 2 1/2" chambers (many of those other guns you mention may have short chambers too). If you load your own ammo, it's not a real concern. If you buy factory ammo, it could be a problem until RST can get enough components to get going on 2 1/2" ammo again. Also, a lot of English/ european guns can't be safely taken out to 2 3/4" chambers. A few of the American guns also have steep enough tapers in the chamber region so as to not be candidates for lengthening either, although a great many can be safely lengthened.


Excellent advice
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