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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Trying to get RMC cases to eject from Winchester Model 37. Cases are 2 3/4" barrel is marked 2 3/4" .I was having a problem trying to get cases to eject , so tool gun to gunsmith to have it cleaned to see if that might help! Gunsmith after cleaning gun,still had a problem trying to get casescto eject!
So he took one case and shortened it a little to see if that might help.
No luck,so he smoked the outside of the case to see how it fit in the chamber.Case as usual still would not eject,and upon taking the case out of chamber , slight wear marks showed on some parts of the entire case! He surmised that one problem might be the ejector spring might not be strong enough to eject the case! Although plastic shells will eject freely and smooth!
It seems to me that RMC cases might be slightly too large in diameter,since plastic shells feed freely and eject great! So any ideas or solutions you might have,would be appreciated![/img]
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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 8:10 pm  Reply with quote
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Need more background

Have you tried

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/MEC-Super-Sizer-resizing-tool-8119/productinfo/1308119/

How about the Lyman drive in sizing die?

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19884&sid=5ecfea8025acff9eed5fdb223457aaf2

Lastly, and big bucks

https://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?filter-col=caliber&filter=16+gauge

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putz463
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:07 am  Reply with quote
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Pardon the ignorance; are the RMC's tapered or straight/parallel walled same diameter of the base?

When you close the gun pushing the brassy into the chamber; does it close needing more force than the plastic hull? When you got the smoked brassy out did you have to use a push rod down the barrel with some force? Or simply pick/pull it out with a fingernail?

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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 6:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

putz463 wrote:
Pardon the ignorance; are the RMC's tapered or straight/parallel walled same diameter of the base?

When you close the gun pushing the brassy into the chamber; does it close needing more force than the plastic hull? When you got the smoked brassy out did you have to use a push rod down the barrel with some force? Or simply pick/pull it out with a fingernail?


Cases are straight walled. Putting brass cases into chamber does take a little more force to close.
Sometimes when case is to eject, it would not eject as soon as barrel was opened. But a second prctwo it would eject! Other times it would not eject and had to be pulled out.
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Old colonel2 wrote:
Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37



It is a Winchester Model 37!
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Old colonel2 wrote:
Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37



It is a Winchester Model 37!
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Old colonel2 wrote:
Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37



It is a Winchester Model 37!
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Old colonel2 wrote:
Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37



It is a Winchester Model 37!
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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Old colonel2 wrote:
Your Ithaca 37 was not designed for 2 3/4 brass, it was designed for paper then plastic.

As you have discovered, If you want to use full length brass you should likely use 2 1/2 or 2 5/8.

While the RMC brass is neat it is post the design of the model 37





It is a Winchester Model 37.
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putz463
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 3:48 am  Reply with quote
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Got it, thanks for confirming straight/parallel walled cases.

Were the scrapes in the carbon black (I would have used a Sharpie) mostly near the hull mouth or all over the walls of the hull?

Do you have a way to measure the ID of the chamber at a couple different depths and then compare OD of the RMC hull? Sounds as though the chamber might have some decent taper to it and pinching the mouth of the brassy.

Back pages of the Lyman manual suggest standard 16ga 2 3/4" chamber dimensions near the rim to be .745 and .732 before the forcing one. And dimensions of a metal based hull .744 (-.009) near the rim and .731 (-0.02) near the mouth.

If this proves out, you can rent chamber reamers to open up the chamber or maybe try a new stronger eject spring first. Then some sand paper on a wood dowel rod to polish the end of the chamber ever so slightly larger similar to DIY opening up a choke.

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BirdSwatter
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 10:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 31 May 2013
Posts: 77
Location: Aurora, Colorado

Thanks putz463!
Will do!
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:33 pm  Reply with quote
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Chambers have not changed much if any from the brass days. They could shoot cases of all materials.

I have used these hulls in one of my Model 12 Winchesters, 16 gauge, without problem. No, I did not use that gun as a repeater in that case, by the way, as brass hulls are not ideal in tubular magazines, and the over-shot sealing method I use probably isn't up to the shock of a slide action. I did it only as a single shot to test some loads in brass. I had no problems inserting the cases nor extracting the cases after firing.

Yes, chambers are tapered. Try this for dimensions: http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html


Last edited by MaximumSmoke on Sun May 28, 2023 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:18 pm  Reply with quote
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Ahem . . . I apologize. My 16 gauge brass is all MagTech. Wonder if the dimensions are different than RMC. I think RMC's are thicker so they can use regular-sized wads for the gauge. I think that was RMC's "special sauce". Aren't their hulls machined rather than drawn? That might be a difference that affects extraction. If I recall correctly, MagTech's are thinner, and therefore require a size up in some wadding -- A disadvantage to some, but it is manageable. I'll have to check my load log and see what I used for wads --15 gauge over-powder cards, maybe? I use Circle Fly Wads, and they would make any odd gauge size. I could mic the hull walls, too.

I'll digress to mention MagTechs in stock form need to be primed with large pistol primers, though they can be bored out for 209's. I have some employing each of those two primer sizes. My 209's came from Hammer Double -- that company no longer exists. Those have what looks like a Fiocchi internal plastic basewad, apparently in the interest of getting the powder entirely above the end of a 209 primer. I do not recommend the Hammer Double hulls -- I'm very watchful in fear of those plastic basewads coming out and obstructing the barrel. I have had no such problem . . . yet. I also have had no problem with ignition of typical smokeless shotshell powders when using the standard MagTech hulls primed with large pistol primers, so I see no reason to machine them out for 209's. The loads I used in them were light 1 ounce loads, about 1150 to 1165 fps, intended for an old break-action hammer double, so I used a fairly fast burning powder. I recommend Unique, as it is so Universal (ha ha, pun intended), but probably such a 1 oz or 7/8 ounce load could use Green Dot or on the lighter end, even Red Dot/Clays/Promo/700-X, etc. For sure there would be no ignition problems with those faster powders and the large pistol primer. I did try a much slower powder to see if I'd have comparative ignition probs -- I used Blue Dot!! No problems!! These loads were compared in the same shooting session with the same loads of both powders and shot in typical straight-walled plastic Rieffenhauser type hulls (209 primers, of course) -- pretty much the vast majority of the 16 gauge hulls typically available to us -- Fiocchi, Cheddite, Martignoni, Federal, etc. Again, no problems.

One more thought -- MagTechs are drawn, a process that probably work-hardens the hull, making it more resistant to yielding under firing pressures. Could it be your machined RMC's are in a soft condition and readily yield on firing to conform a bit too closely to a non-ideal chamber shape and sort of lock themselves in. The Model 37 Winchester is not exactly a gun of precision manufacture.

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RGuill96971
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2019
Posts: 519
Location: Texas

Couple things I have noticed between the Magtech and RMC. Yes, the RMC has thicker walls and is machined on a lathe. Very expensive but work great. The Magtech works with smokeless powder and as all ready stated with pistol primers or 209's if you drill them out. The pistol primers will for sure ignite red dot, green dot and blue dot. The Magtech will require oversized fiber wads and an overshot card glued in. I have found that hot glue works best for the sealing of the overshot card. It cleans up the case when fired and won't require any additional cleaning. I have tried water glass and found it seals well but also leaves a hard ring around the case that's a bear to get out. May need to try the ultra-sonic cleaner method. The key to getting a load to work in the brass cases is all in the sealing of the overshot card. In the old days the cases were crimped with a special crimper. I have found that doing so works the brass and it fails much faster, so I no longer crimp. This is really true with the older UMC brass or Winchester.
The best sizing of any brass hull will be with the C&H full length sizing die. I have tried just about everything out there. If you're going to resize brass, spend the money and buy from C&H. Then you will need a good Metallic press. I use the MEC marksman mounted to 1/2" steel plate, mounted to 3/4 plywood reloading table. You will need lube. The Magtech and UMC brass resize fairly easy.
I don't think you will get the brass to work reliably in the 37 unless you crimp the end of the brass. Which at the price of brass isn't really something I would want to do.
The Magtech would be the way to go in my opinion. They are cheaper and easier to resize. You may need a custom-made FL die and add the crimp die. The Magtech cases are much easier to get a good load out of if you put plastic base wad in the hull and then load. Yes, it works very well, but requires work that most people don't want to do. I can get just as good of patterns and performance out of them as factory bought shells. If you want to drill the Magtech for 209's adding the plastic base wad solves some problems that you will have with powder ignition.
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