16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 17 Oct 2019 Posts: 456 Location: New Jersey

They all have their weakness’s and strong points but I’ve seen far more Parkers, Fox’s, and Ithaca’s shot loose than Elsie’s. I’m not saying Elsie’s are the best but that’s just been my observation over many years handling thousands of old American sxs’s. I personally think they’re all worth owning and it’s silly to avoid a brand because some smiths won’t work in them. There are many smiths that will work on Elsie’s.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

After much consideration, I've decided to try Elsie out again. Terry Nicholson summers not far from my home here and Terry is the 'smith who has kept all my English guns running swimmingly for the last 15-years or so now. And, FWIW...Terry is actually an L.C. Smith man as well. Like me, he grew up with Elsie (and evidently still owns several versions).

In my search through the classic American doubles for a long & heavier 12, I looked at several variants that Dewey Vicknair would seem to actually approve-of (for the record, I tend to agree with Dewey's assessment of the classic American guns). The Remington 1894 (and 1900) variants, the Fox Sterlingworth (especially the "pin" guns), and even the Parker #2-frame guns all would have worked perfectly-well and I was sorely-temped by several. But...I ran across a very clean example of an early (late 1890s) "O" grade Smith (with Damascus barrels even!) that, for the price of a pump-gun (the rest were twice to 4 times as much money), will likely very-well serve my purposes. I'll have Terry go through it first to vett it, stabilize the head of the stock (if needed), and open the chokes slightly (extra full & extra full are probably a bit much). I'll likely end up with my brother's gun some day as well, but for now this (& an old hammer-gun) will be my "nostalgic event" guns.

What has largely driven my recent firearm purchases (besides my usual rabid-interest in such things) are the recently changing gun laws here in Colorado (& elsewhere). I don't have a crystal ball, but gun ownership in this country will likely get more-complicated going forward and I figured that I'd better try a few things out while I still easily can.

Gentlemen,

L.C. Smith sold more double guns than any other American gun manufacturer, thousands of them were highly abused, down thru the years. The guns used, cleaned, oiled and stored properly have no problems, after more than 100 years of usage. I own more than a few of these guns, from the entry level 00 grade to the high grade #5 and Pigeon guns, they have no problems, and probably never will, because they were used with the proper shell size, for their chambers and kept correctly. You can believe what you like or watch Nick Makinson's Video and see the truth about the L.C. Smith double guns. Nick was the expert Master Gun Maker on L.C. Smith guns, no modern gun smith was his equal when dealing with L.C. Smith Guns. Watch his Video and learn the truth about the L.C. Smith double guns. I respect many of Deweys opinions on guns, however not his opinion on L.C. Smith guns. His experience with the abused L.C. Smith guns, is the only experience he has with L.C. Smith guns, he chooses not to work on them, because of his experience trying to repair them. That is his right as a business man. His opinion on L.C. Smith guns is his own, unfortunately some people who are not engineers, put way to much stock in his opinion on L.C. Smith double guns, when they should be listening and watching Nick Makinson and his expertise on L.C. Smith double guns. Each is entitled to his own opinion however.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

L.C. Smith #5, .410 bird gun over 100 years old, sold recently on GI for over $150,000. No matter who tells you differently, L.C. Smith Guns are Americas Best - John Houchins, Nick Makinson, Walt Schiessl & Dave Buehner.

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Dave: I watched Nick Makinson's video on YouTube and was surprised to find out he was a Brit (I would not have suspected that)!

Well, I own an Elsie again (it's been a lifetime since the last one). It gets here this Thursday. I ended up with a very early Fulton, NY Gun, circa late 1891 (I think the earlier guns are pretty nice). It has English laminated steel tubes (not twist as advertised) which I'll examine closely and measure carefully down at my old shop before proceeding. I also have a very good 'smith lined up to further review it's condition (yet another Elsie fan!) and then I'll break a few clays with it (with proper ammunition of course). It was advertised as an "O" grade gun, but the good folks over on the LC Smith webpage have confirmed for me that it's likely to be a Quality No. 1 gun from that very-early Hunter Arms period (O-Grades evidently didn't start production until 1894?). I won't have much in it to start, but it's long tubes and substantial weight should make it a pleasure to drag out for special events on a clays range. If I can adapt to it's 3-inches of drop, and "if" the gun is as healthy as it presently appears to be, I'll likely have it's visual components freshened-up a bit as well (refinish the "composed" steel tubes back to their original "Black & White", stabilize the head of the stock (with epoxy impregnation?) and then have the woodworks' exterior respectfully brought back to a fresher appearance). I'll have a bit more in it then.

Because it's a pre-1898 gun, I won't be subjected to Colorado's now mandatory 3-day waiting period. I also won't have to pay for an FFL to deal with the transfer. That makes me even happier somehow.

*Last edited by skeettx on Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total*

My Quality 3 made in 1892

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Hey Skeettx! Nice old Elsie, what are the tubes? 1892 huh, that makes it a 3rd year of Fulton production gun. You need to bring that one to Whittington next year so we can compare notes.

*Last edited by skeettx on Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total*

I have cheated and fitted a set of Briley twenty gauge tubes,
therefore, I can shoot , shoot, and shoot

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

That's not cheating, in fact it's probably prudent. Hey, I was also asking over on the "Elsie" webpage about the shared characteristics of early Fulton guns and the later Syracuse stuff, but I've yet to get my question answered. I've also not found good photography of these earlier guns anywhere. Any suggestions as to where to look?

HMMM I do have one of the last Syracuse made Quality 2 10 gauge hammerless guns

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

You are always full of surprises! How do the two guns compare?

*Last edited by skeettx on Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total*

One is heavier than the other
he he he

Hello, Just a story to warm my heart. Some years ago, I was acquired by a Grade II L. C. Smith in 10 gauge that was made at the old plant. I feel that she is one of the last hammerless made at the Syracuse plant. She has damascus steel barrels that are beautiful to look at. One day she and I were involved in a gentle warm discussion and she asked me if I would take her duck hunting. I tried to explain that the rules had changed and now steel shot was required and smokeless powder was the norm. She looked at me with that special way that only she can do and said "Please, please." Well, no way that I could say no to "Her SWeetness."
So what is a fella to do. I found 25 Alcan all brass shotshell hulls that take the 57 size primers. I made a sizing die to insure they might fit into her sleek chambers. She was really excited when I showed her the brass hulls. She said she remembered the days when brass and also paper hulls were very common. Wow, is she pretty when she smiles. Now, I found some 1F black powder, and some 10 gauge over shot wads. I also bought some MEC 10 gauge steel wads which I cut off to the correct length to fit into the alcan hulls. I talked it over with her and said I would only be using #3 steel pellets to insure she would not get swollen. She sure did appreciate that. So, I combined the hulls, primers, dipper load of 1F black, cutoff MEC wad, same dipper of #3 steel shot and topped it off with an over shot wad and Elmer's glue around the edge. I did insure the shot volumn was a little smaller that the wad volumn to insure all the shot stayed in the wad during the travel down the barrels. I showed the finished cartridges to her and wow, did she shine with joy. Well now we made a date to go to the duck blind. I was so proud to show her off to my buddies, I mean who would not brag if his special gal would get up and go so early in the morning. Well, here came the test, I caressed her and THEN here came the ducks and it an instant, she was up and spoke with authority and power. Smoke was everywhere, but when it cleared TWO green head mallards were feet up on the water. WHAT A JOY. She has told me things that she has kept in her heart for years. She and I have grown closer and closer. We often just gaze at each other and smile. She does wonder if any of her old girlfriends out there hunt any more. I did assure her that I would find out.
Enjoy the hunt,

keettx,
You were smart to sleeve the old gun with the Damascus barrels, my 20 gauge was sleeved with chrome lined sleeves long ago and it gets shot quite frequently also. Never any problems with that old 20 gauge #2 gun. Briley did the sleeving of my #2 gun, if you sleeves your gun yourself, and did it correctly you are a talented man for sure.

Lloyd3,
Congrats on picking up a couple nice L.C. Smith guns, and watching Nicks video also. You now know the truth about L.C. Smith double guns, from the Master Gun Maker who knew the L.C. Engineering completely. One of my favorite parts of the video is were he talks about the Brown Rotary Bolt being the best ever made, and that the Brits knew nothing about it, and actually thought the guns would shoot off face, in a short time. Even after watching the video where he teaches how to rework damages done to the L.C. Smith gun, most gun smiths can not due the work correctly. Nick in the video also shows how to make the screws for the L.C. Smith gun, which I though was real cool.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 17 Jan 2014 Posts: 1381 Location: Denver, Colorado

Dave: Only one gun so-far ( & I haven't even got it in-hand yet) but....it has been fun to rediscover my shotgunning "roots", as it were. This particular gun seems to be somewhat transitional, having features of both the Syracuse guns that preceded it and the Fulton guns that followed. Looking forward to going through it, evaluating it's needs, and finally...to shooting it (presuming everything passes muster).

Lloyd3,
Definitely post some pictures of your gun when you get it, would love to see what you purchased. Also recommend the purchase of a real nice #5 Gun as you expand your L.C. Smith gun collection. The 16 gauge guns are incredible and the 20's are almost impossible to get your hands on. The 12 gauge #5 guns are impossible to wear out, when taken care of properly. The one pictured below belonged to Albert Kraus for his Pigeon Shooting contests long ago, still operates like brand new at over 100 years old. I shoot Pheasants and Clays with it today.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

L.C. Smith 16 gauge #5 gun, what dreams are made of. The ultimate Grouse Gun.

Our 12 Gauge #5 L.C. Smith double gun, one very fine double gun. My Pheasant & Clays gun today.

If you like the early S series L.C. Smith guns, I highly recommend the #7 gun, top shelf double guns for sure, they had no equal in the era they were made.