16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

To me it seems like it should be able to handle 3/4 and 7/8 oz. loads. The issue I see is, Perfect Pattern is so dense that getting enough wad column height will/could be a problem with 2 3/4" hulls. Especially because we don't have a wad for it any longer, with the DR16 not being available.

Perfect Pattern might be OK in the Remington hull with the CB0078-16 wad for 7/8 oz. loads but the velocity might end up under 1,200 FPS.

On this one, I will be more than happy to let someone else be the guinea pig!!

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 823

I. Perfect pattern I haven't tried it yet. But a fellow shooter just bought a 8lb jug last Friday trap shoot. He said likes it very well. Not as expensive as others. He also uses high gun. Said he had 3 8lber's . He's a very good shooter playing trap games. He has a kregoff 12 and usually shoots 4 to 5 nights a week. I can keep up with him using my 16 525
Even at the back fences. Each of us usually pay for our shooting with our winnings.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

I sent an email to Hodgdon inquiring whether Perfect Pattern was suitable for 16 ga. Promptly received the following reply:

“ I am sorry but no data is available for 16 ga for perfect pattern. We would recommend Win 572 for 16 ga”

Very responsive but not terribly helpful. Maybe someone might consider sending in a load to Tom.

B.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

It would be nice if Hogdon would quit screwing around with new powders that don't do anything new, and get back to producing powders like 800-X and 4756 that were actually better than what they make now...

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 823

I agree with Wchuckar

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

I’d be happy if they simply produced quantities of any powders other than Red Dot substitutes.

B.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

I agree with Wyo, but here is the problem $$$$$. PB, SR7625, SR4756 were great powders, but they were very expensive to make. Before IMR sold the rights of the Dupont/IMR powders to Hodgdon, there was talk that they were expensive to make and the prices were already starting to climb. Not sure if you folks remember but those 3 powders were close to $200.00 for an 8 lb. jug in the early 2000's. Those were unheard of prices for 8 lbs. of powder especially for a shotgun.

800-X is a great powder, and not too expensive to make, but the poor metering of that powder, especially for 20 and 28 gauge loads, has always been a problem. You have to remember that hunters don't reload anywhere close to as much ammo as the clay target guys. 800-X was originally supposed to be for 20 and 28 gauge target loads. 700-X for the 12 gauge and 800-X for the 20 and 28 gauges, it never really worked out.

You have to understand and be realistic about the firearms industry......it ain't what it used to be, if it was, DuPont would still be selling DuPont powders. Hercules would still be making powder. Winchester would still be selling their powders. Hodgdon would only be selling their powders, not Hodgdon, DuPont/IMR, Accurate, Winchester and Ramshot. It isn't because Hodgdon is soooo BIG, it is because these other companies saw that the profit in smokeless powder was getting smaller.

Hodgdon does some stuff that might not make us happy, but they are the only game in town and they are the only US company that has brought out some powders to replace what has become difficult to get from other sources. I am referring to a lot of the flake and extruded powders.

Then there is Alliant, talk about being stagnant and not producing powder and stating that there will be a large price increase. $300 for 8 lbs. of their shotshell powders??? They can step to the rear and kiss.

The above are some of the reasons I started working with and using Vihtavuori powders.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

Alliant stagnant? I can't help but wonder if that has anything to do with Hogdon owning the distribution rights to their powder?

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

No, I was ordering Alliant Powder from Hodgdon in the 1990's. Hodgdon doesn't have the horsepower to stop the folks that make the powder for Alliant. It was Alliant Techsystems back then and own the factory that makes powder for Alliant.

Alliant Powder, as far as I can tell, or maybe I should say the Alliant Powder name was sold to Vista Outdoors, Alliant doesn't make smokeless powder it all comes from either the plant that Alliant Techsystems owns (now ATK)in Virginia or by a company in Sweden. ATK is huge and makes lots of military defense items, including solid fuel rocket propellants. They could buy and sell Hodgdon in a second. Hodgdon is not a big company, they are basically still a family owned company. They might have some figureheads, but there is no board of directors and they aren't on any stock market.

We all have to come to the realization that we are just a bunch of dinosaurs. Folks do not use anywhere near the reloading powders that we once did. Some of it is that folks are lazy, overworked (two people working) and prosperous enough to buy ammo. Most of it is because of the political climate in this country and the world.

The only way to control what we get is to use it, and we as a group just don't have the juice to force the folks that actually make smokeless powder(not just sell it) to make what we want.

This isn't some big scheme by big bad Hodgdon, we as shooters are it doing to ourselves, because we just don't have the numbers any more. Hodgdon doesn't even have the horsepower to get their own proprietary powders made such as Clays, International, Universal. They are only selling 700-X by the 1 and 4 lbers. right now.

You might not like what Hodgdon is doing but, they are the only (in my opinion) folks selling and supplying powder right now. Alliant? I have no idea what they are doing but, with their latest price increase and their terrible availability they can go pound sand. They begrudgingly have produced some new data. Hodgdon has done a lot more testing and is providing more new data sooner than Alliant has.

To me Alliant powder is nothing more than a store front now and an empty one at that.

Joined: 24 Jul 2016 Posts: 548 Location: Ohio

Well said Mark. I really like Green Dot but would be tickled pink if Universal and IMR Green were back on the market. Aliant's website isn't even worth going to. 80% of my reloading is 16 gauge, 15% 12 gauge and5% 20 gauge.

Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Posts: 2126 Location: Hudson,Wy

Mark, it's odd that we don't have the buying power to be worth investing much effort in...yet Hogdon is coming up with new powders. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just keep selling what people are already buying rather than spend the bucks on R&D? It's not like they have any competition right now. I still say it's weird that they are wasting time on new powders when they already have products like Universal that people are waiting to buy, but they aren't producing. With every new powder there is a lot of testing and data work to do and that takes money, something you know everything about for sure.

As far as Alliant goes, in my area I saw the same price increases on Hogdon powders, especially the rifle stuff. You are right that Alliant is an empty store front. That's sad since they have been good about producing products and not dropping them on a whim...until recently when they may as well have dropped everything all together. Of course, I am under the notion that their products are subject to other obligations of the companies who actually make the powder too.

An interesting side note. ATK does more than propellents. They are heavily involved in the "space industry". Their expertise with rockets, etc. is where they got the idea for Federal's Flite Control wad. It's basically a rendition of the drop away section of a multi stage rocket (think Saturn V rocket) that pulls away via drag rather than a flaring multi petal shot cup.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Lest we lose heart on 16 ga powders, I have a small glimmer of hope from my newly acquired Pressure Trace II testing. I will post some charts shortly, but very preliminary trends show that traditional 12 ga powders like Red Dot and Clay Dot are perfectly suitable for light to medium 7/8 oz loads in 16 ga, with peak pressures well below one of our most popular 16ga factory game loads.

It’s well documented that powders on the slow end of the scale like Longshot and Steel can work extremely well for heavier 16 ga loads. But the faster 12 ga powders were of the greatest concern to me because although their availability is quite good, we know the least about them in 16 ga, as so few recipes for them exist.

I will extend the testing to 1 oz loads in the faster powders to see if the trends hold. Some of this testing might have to wait until springtime when the rains here diminish. But I think we might have reason to hope for coping with our limited powder options, i.e., simply use what powders are available, in a proper manner.

V/R
B.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1844 Location: Central ND

Yup absolutely correct.

I have been using 700-X for a couple of years now for a 7/8 oz. load. 1,260 FPS at 8,700 PSI. It was tested by Precision.