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Joined: 04 Nov 2019 Posts: 102 Location: Wyoming

I'm about to use up a 1lb can of Hercules Green Dot that was given to me earlier this year. Using it for 3/4oz loads with DR16s. I have an opportunity to buy a new production 8lb keg of green dot. Seems to be that the newer production has some high pressure issues? Is that right?

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Green Dot, regardless of date of manufacture is just fine for 3/4 oz. and 7/8 oz. 16 gauge loads.

The supposed high pressure issues surround 1 oz. loads. From everything I have seen or done myself, it isn't the loads from 1,150 FPS and down that are the problem. It's when you start trying to push it to higher velocities, but green Dot has always been that way. The reason it is showing up now is because it is easier for us to get loads tested. Before we went on blind faith that Alliant/Hercules had it right. When SAAMI switched from lead crusher to piezo that's when the questions started, which is why some engineers, wanted another 1,000 PSI added to the current MAP's across the board.

The other part of this is that either Hercules or Alliant went along with Briley who complained that Green Dot when used with 20 gauge loads was cracking their tubes. That also has a hand in what started all this stuff about the 'new' Green Dot producing higher pressures. They should have told Briley to design better tubes, but.........

Joined: 04 Nov 2019 Posts: 102 Location: Wyoming

Thanks for that bit of info. Always appreciate your insights and knowledge on this forum!

I used about 12 lbs of GD on this load. Did not send out for testing, so use at your own risk. This was in a modern gun (Citori). I would not use in a gun made before 1926 without testing.

Cheddite 2-3/4” hull, Win 209, 19gr GD, DR16, 3/4 oz #9
Avg: 1359 fps, SD: 18.73

My crimps were probably shallower than recommended, and they were dished if I remember correctly. There is data back and forth about pressure if you do a search in this forum.

The load served its purpose (practice) when supplies were scarce. This was with both black lid and newer green lid bottles.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Location: West MI

For reference, I recently tested this load with 2grn less than published data and the results basically match the FPS & Pressure as published with 17.5-18grs all else equal.

Win (Red Ched) once fired current hull, Ched209 cx2000, 16g GreenDot (black lid), BPI SG16, 1oz #8 lead, 6 fold.
FPS-1112,1141,1138,1142,1139 av1134,sd12,ev30
Pres-9450,9160,9060,9250,8730,av9130sd265,ev720

If 16gr ~= 18gr published... then it is reasonable to assume 20gr published loads at near max pressure would be pretty hot with current GD powder and testing methods.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 446 Location: Maine

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 790 Location: Mn.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Cold Iron,

I get what you are talking about, but remember you are using Green Dot in Cheddite hulls. The pressures go up with Federal and Remington hulls....always did even with supposed older Green Dot.

You are assuming that it's just the 'new' Green Dot. In the 1990's when I was developing loads for Precision, using Winchester (Cheddite), Remington and Federal hulls using the same manufacturer's primers and Bascheri & Pellagri wads (Z2M16) if you got 1,150 FPS with 1 oz. loads, without going over MAP you were lucky. It was so all over the place we decided it wasn't worth it to publish any 1 oz. loads with Green Dot......and we were using the same equipment as Tom Armbrust was back then, all of the stuff coming from PCB Piezotronics, same exact universal receiver, same exact test barrel manufacturer and same chronograph. We used to have a reference load that we recorded to results every time we setup our equipment. Our stuff was consistently close, to each other, as in within a few hundred PSI.

I have told you of this experience before, but you choose to ignore it.

All powders lots vary to some degree. 500 to 1,000 PSI is insignificant, but most folks get all twisted up over that.

The difference is, rarely did an individual ever have loads tested back then, because there was only H.P. White and every load would cost you $100 or so, and not many folks even knew about them. H.P. White was using lead crusher back then.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Location: West MI

Fun day at the range yesterday playing with a new to me Athlon Rangecraft chrono/toy. Obtained mainly for the long range handgun stuff I'm enjoying but ran a couple shotgun loads by it for kicks. It works works very well.

Also, picked up some green lid Greendot while on a shopping spree at a favorite shop nearby.

The black lid GreenDot jug used to test some recent loads is batch 942011017 and measured out at ~7.8gr/cc
The new green lid GD jug is batch 012062823 and measured out at ~8.4gr/cc

I test gr/cc by taking several samples with a level 1tsp/5ml measuring spoon (1ml=1cc) and weight averaging the data down to a single ml or cc.

Loaded up 4ea of this recipe swapping only the 16gr (by weight) of powder.

Win (Ched) once fired current hull, Ched209 cx2000, 16g GreenDot (black lid), BPI SG16, 1oz #8 lead, 6 fold. av1134,sd12,ev30

It was knocking on the door of 100*f yesterday so might be the reason the black lid data tested a bit hotter (pardon) in comparison to PR data. or I don't know where PR takes their FPS reading, this Anthon was ~8" from muzzle, could be a factor.

Black lid av 1166fps, Green lid av 1211fps.

If anyone would like a Caldwell Ballistic Precision chrono, several years old, used but not abused, let me know and maybe we can do some horse trading, maybe some 16ga Ched hulls, 360DW or 357max brass, 357/358 180gr pills or whatever. PM if interested.

That’s some interesting data, never would’ve thought to measure gr/cc. Might explain some things for sure. I appreciate how you averaged numerous samples.

I know with the recent 14 oz bottles of Titewad, myself and some other people in my club noticed each bottle had a different density so we dumped them all in an empty 8 lb jug and shook well to get things consistent.

Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Posts: 951

Gun club that I participate got in 3 8lb of GD. SAID he will be getting more he was told. Won't sell what he has right now until he sees what prices will be. To break even with tax and all would be 370 for 8 per. Said most of green dot been in warehouse for 4 years just waiting for right price. He got 3 jugs. Said he got universal for 270.00 8 lbder.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 790 Location: Mn.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

So I guess we are going to agree to disagree on this one. I don't trust GD in a 1 oz, 16 gauge load.

Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

So I’m kind of late to this party but I picked up 2 Partial 8 pound bottles/kegs of Greendot from an estate of a deceased man. By the looks of his stuff, he must have been quite a shooter. Anyway, I ve been researching Greendot and wonder about its application in the 16 with 1 oz. loads. I still have Alliant’s manual in pdf form that shows the following:
Fed.hull/Fed 209A primer/SP16 wad/19 gr. Greendot and 1 1/8 oz of shot.
This seems pretty far off from other loads I’ve seen regarding this combo. I did load 18.5 for a 1 oz load but I’m a little dubious of that. The plastic jug has a 2009 manufacturing date and the other is a cardboard keg which must be fairly old. I have contacted Alliant about their 19 gr/ 1 1/8 load.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? And to add to the Universal thread, I’m down to my last pound and looking for a substitute that would use the same components. All this is for a 1 oz load. I’m pretty well fixed on my components, just need a powder I can plug in for Universal that’s actually available.

Thanks, John.

Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Location: West MI

Seems to me if you subtract 2grns off any published GD data and send a few by a chronograph to verify speed close to the recipe you should be good to go. Does the powder in either of those kegs you inherited smell odd or acrid not the typical spicy black pepper and acetone kinda smell? If acrid might want to add it to the fertilizer spreader.

Never have liked the SP16 wads in any other hull recipe other than RGL's. IMO way too much wiggle room for migration.