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Joined: 02 Apr 2021 Posts: 14

Here is a load I had tested by Precision.

Cheddite hull, 2-1/2" once fired
Cheddite primer 209 (2000)
TUWG2116 wad
16.0 gr. Green Dot (if it means anything Black cap)
1 once #7-1/2 lead shot
6pt. crimp.
Shot and powder were hand measured.

Ave. velocity, 1197 fps. Ave. pressure, 8285 fps.
SD Velocity, 21 SD pressure, 453
EV Velocity, 47 EV pressure, 1250

I dropped down to 15.4 gr. powder and 7/8 once shot. Made for a nice shooting load, smashed clays with gusto and easy on the shoulder.

Of course, this info is for educational purposes only
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Member Joined: 06 Oct 2007 Posts: 2520 Location: West MI

Thanks for sharing. Another positive data point for the usefulness of GD in the 16ga.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

Look at the Sd and EV numbers. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but those are not good numbers and will only get worse as the temps drop.

Look at Cold Iron's Green Dot Sd and EV numbers, those are tremendous. Sd should be 14 FPS or less. EV should be 35 FPS or less. Single digit Sd's with target or light field loads are very common.

This is what I don't understand and why I have heartburn with Green Dot and 1 oz. 16 gauge loads. The components in Cold Iron's and hmm363's are very similar and that shorter hull should have at least as good Sd and EV numbers.......but that's not what happens. So which loads are correct Cold Iron's or hmm363's?

Something that should be taken into consideration when having loads tested. Pressure under SAAMI MAP is a given, big deal it's under MAP, it should be. That's right up there with does the load fit? It better. Velocity yeah OK, someone is looking for some number. but missing it by 50 FPS isn't a deal breaker. The numbers that are more important than pressure and velocity averages are the Sd and EV, numbers. They give you insight into what is going to really happen with the load, how consistent is the load and what is going to most likely happen as the temps drop. The larger the Sd and EV numbers the worse it will get. All loads suffer as the temps drop, but keeping that to a minimum is important. A lot more important than "I wanted 1,150 FPS and I got 1,200 FPS".

Member Joined: 30 Nov 2011 Posts: 1777 Location: Minnesota

Why would you ask which persons load is "correct"? I dont recall CI ever loading a 2.5 in load much less testing them. Both persons loads were tested by a respected house so to me they are both correct.
I thank you for your bringing up the effects of "cold" on loads. Maybe I should think of it more often but I just dont. Maybe its on your mind more than most since you live in middle of nowhere ND with legendary winters?? Laughing

LMAO.
It seems that the last 2 roosters I shot here in MN in December were with 2.5 inch chedites with 1 oz of NP 5s and GD that I got from another member here but just a little slower than what the OP posted. hmm363- I think if you use that load with the hardest shot you can find you'll be very happy. Thanks for posting it!

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

The difference in the two loads is not that large just because of shell length. The SG16 in a 2 3/4" hull and an ounce of shot fits fairly well, but there is definitely some room in it. It fits a bit tighter in the 2 1/2" hull IF, it is fold crimped, which I assume it was. The Sd and EV shouldn't change at all, if anything it most likely will get better.

As far as Sd, EV, and temps go, it has nothing to do with where I live. I have seen what happens first hand when a load is not consistent at 70 degrees. Just because you killed a couple of pheasants really isn't the point. My question is why do tested loads with Green Dot show such a wide difference, in velocities, pressures and in this case consistent ballistics? This has been going on for at least 30 years that I know of.

I am not questioning anyone's abilities with reloading. This is not an attack on any member. If someone wants to use Green Dot for 1 oz. loads, that's fine with me. This is all about Green Dot and why there is no consistent ballistics when using 1 oz. loads. It is not an argument from my POV, it is a discussion.

Tom Armbrust and Precision Reloading give the Sd and EV numbers for a reason. Simple skyscreen chronographs give those numbers for a reason. Sd and EV are important because they give insight. As I stated before, those numbers are probably just as, if not more important than the velocity and pressure averages.

Joined: 02 Apr 2021 Posts: 14

MSM2019,
As I mentioned, I hand weighted each powder and shot charge using a balance beam scale and was pretty darn picky. But having said that, might there have been a flake or two of powder one way or the other or a pellet of shot one way or the other? I'm sure.

so I looked over the results from the test and would like to run these numbers by you for any insight you would care to share. I can guarantee your experience in ballistics far exceeds mine.

What I looked at first was the highest pressure generated and the velocity it produced.
8,770 psi produced 1,212 fps.

next was lowest pressure vs. speed.
7,520 psi produced 1,205 fps.

Diff. of 1,250 psi and 7 fps.

Next, lowest and highest velocity and pressure that produced it.
1,167 fps produced by 8,450 psi.
1,214 fps produced by 8,000 psi.

Diff. 47 fps and 450 psi.

What I found interesting was, 8580 psi. produced 1,213 fps. and 8,000 psi. produced 1,214 fps. A difference of 580 psi. and 1 fps.

All Shells were loaded on a MEC 600 jr. with short kit installed. Wad pressure was such to insure wad was tight to the powder, crimp depths were as deep as a penny is thick, about 0.050-0.055".

I realize all components of reloading a shot shell are variables. Any thoughts you might like to share would be much appreciated by myself and others.

I mostly shoot composite barreled Parker's and Lefevers so chamber pressure is a concern as is payload, trying to be nice to old wood and metal. In many cases because of of those restrictions the powders that are used are not used to their full potential.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

hmm363,

There is no linear correlation between pressure and velocity, even though sometimes it appears that way. The pressure and velocity figures are fine.

Let me preface the following with an understanding of what I want from my own loads. #1 The load must fit, using 30 lbs. of wad pressure, I want the wad firmly on the powder and a flat crimp #2 The load must function in break actions, pumps and SA's. #3 I don't tailor loads to the time of year. They have to work no matter what the temperature is.

As far as how you weighed powder, you did exactly what you were supposed to do. There is nothing more you can do. The issue with EV and Sd are related to how well all the components play together. It can be frustrating, because you have load 'A' that uses ABC primers and DEF powder and everything is wonderful. Go to load 'B' and because you changed a wad, hull or payload, all of a sudden ABC primers start arguing with DEF powder. It does not normally happen with Red Dot, Green Dot, 700-X, Clays etc. It happens often with powders slower than Unique, Universal and heavier loads. A primer change almost always solves the issue. This is what I was taught by someone that I know well and taught me how to pressure and velocity test. Sd should be 14 FPS or under. EV should be 35 FPS or under. Can you always accomplish those numbers? 99% of the time yes. The only time I have seen that you can't is with the real heavy loads and you only have a couple of realistic primer choices.

There are plenty of folks that have the EV and Sd numbers that your loads have, and no one would ever know the difference especially in the summer time. The leads won't change, but the pellet energy(velocity) does as the temps drop. To the point where the loads even get off sounding. By that time the load has lost well over 100 FPS and the bore of the shotgun will have debris in it. A good load will only lose 5% of it's velocity when subjected to 0 degrees F for 24 hours.

I know that many can't throw 10 rounds in the freezer over night and then chrono them the following morning, because it's 45 minutes to the range and another 30 minutes to setup. I am lucky because I can literally walk out my back door 100' and chrono test loads and shoot the loads within a few minutes of them coming out of 0 degrees F. The EV and Sd numbers that I gave above will many times cover the cold temps, especially with the fast burning powders. When you have an EV difference of 40+ FPS at 70 degrees the likelihood that the load will perform well (not just go bang) when the temps drop already has taken a hit.

I can go on and on about this stuff, but I believe you will understand why I stated that I put average velocities and pressures on the back burner, until I am sure the EV and Sd numbers are solid.

Thank you for being understanding and knowing that I wasn't arguing or putting anything that you did down.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

Here is a perfect example of certain loads not liking certain primers, when all else is exactly the same. This was done in 2010 when the DR16 first came out. Look at the last two loads. The 7/8 oz. loads with the Federal 209A was a winner. The load at the bottom of the page with the Winchester 209 was garbage and the other components were all the same. Any idea how many loads there are with Universal and Winchester 209's that are perfect? Lots of them.

Anyway I am still wondering why Cold Iron's numbers are so good and yours are so bad. It's not making any sense. Which in my opinion is the issue with Green Dot and 1 oz. loads. It's not consistent. Why did Alliant delete the 16 gauge and 20 gauge Green Dot data? They probably know something that we don't.

A lot of people say that the older GD is slower......but there are velocities that both Cold Iron got and that Precision Reloading has that are way over what the older GD would do. Back in the late 1990's you were lucky to get 1,150 FPS and stay under MAP. Now it seems like you use less GD, get more velocity and stay under MAP, but only certain folks can do it. Makes no sense.

Joined: 02 Apr 2021 Posts: 14

MSM2019

Thanks for your replies. Still digesting.

Looking at the last two recipies, certainly looks like the W209 is the problem. I wonder if perhaps the batch of Cheddite primers I used might have some bearing?

I have been loading RGL hulls (16ga) that measure 2-5/8", Ched. 209, DR16, 15.5 gr. of 20/28 and 7/8oz. 7-1/2 shot. I did find the test report on the load done by Tom Armbrust, Sd=9, EV=25, ave. velocity=6,160psi. It was a great shooting load in my composite barreled guns and I liked the chamber pressure. Unfortunately my supply of RGL's are pretty crisp and just about at the point of being useless.

So, I cut down a Cheddite hull to 2-5/8" and loaded the the same recipe. I used a semi clear hull and was able to measure the crush section of the DR16, it compressed by 7/32" from one out of the bag. I checked the volume of the RGL and Ched. using water. The Ched can hold 3/32" more water, I'm guessing that might be a good thing.
I think I will load some up and send off to be tested, I have a fair amount of 20/28.

I tried the 16gr. Green Dot recipe with a DR16 wad in the 2-5/8" hull, hull crushed above the brass.

So, back to the original recipe. Would like your opinion if you would like to share. Same hull, primer, wad and 7/8oz. of shot, what would be your opinion on the amount of green dot to get good SD,EV numbers and stay around the 1,150 fps and 7,000-7,500(or lower) psi. Or, maybe you think I'm barking up the wrong tree.

I have a fair amount of 20/28 but have a bunch more Green Dot.

BTW, this quiz will be worth 50% of this semester's grade.

How much influence does hull variation have on the stats of a given load -- SD and ES.

How much "experience" had each of those hulls had? Hulls get roughened-up a bit inside by previous firings, to a degree that can be quite different with different loads. Thus the hull's "grip" on the wad can vary. Also, I can imagine slight differences in inside dimensions. Remington hulls (old original RGL's and SP's), in my experience, are notorious for hull length variations, batch to batch. I do not consider them nearly as uniform as Euro hulls.

Your thoughts/experiences along these lines Mark?

Tony

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

Hi Tony,

Variation in length, if the variation plays with the crimp depth, it can affect the EV and Sd.

Normally as long as the hull is still in good shape, the number of times fired doesn't change the ballistics to any great degree. The biggest difference you will see is between new hulls and once fired. The once fired will show higher chamber pressures because the interior of the hull has been 'roughed up'. But like all things with shotshells they are all different and there is no rule of thumb.

I have tried testing velocity and pressure with the Winchester 16 gauge hulls that were made in Italy, I stopped at 7 reloads and the ballistics were still consistent. The hulls I used had crimp folds in good shape with no splits. I was crimping them .060" - .065" deep. Tom Armbrust has an article about how long multi fired hulls still perform well, he reloaded hulls a number of times and the ballistics really didn't change very much.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/caselife.htm

Mark,

What I’ve noticed is certain powders burn the hulls a bit more which seems to have a thinning effect on the mouth of the hulls. Would that cause ballistics to change?

Sorry if this is somewhat off the original topic, I can’t remember if Green Dot did that or not.

MSM2019 said:

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2133 Location: Central ND

Citori16,

Maybe, I can't say that I have ever experimented with powders that burn the hulls badly, to find out what would happen. I don't tend to have that problem with powders.

Mark,

I missed your statement on once fired vs new hulls that Tony quoted. I have often wondered about this, especially with certain powders that roast the hull.

Tony,
I am right on board with your assessment on initial powder ignition. So far in my somewhat limited experience 572 and Perfect Pattern seem to absolutely cook the hull walls, to the point of causing hull separation earlier than other powders, typically after 4 reloads. I've never experienced hull separation with Green Dot, but IIRC, I was using Federal hulls which tend to be pretty stout. I have definitely noticed hull mouth thinning with Perfect Pattern, to the point of the edge actually losing material or shrinking such that the mouth is no longer "level" but ragged without any splits. Longshot seems to be good for saving the hulls, and the more I think about it, I used quite a lot of Green Dot in a limited number of hulls with only splits in the mouth or primer pockets expanding being my criteria for setting a hull aside to either trim down or resize the pocket.