16ga.com ~ View topic

A friend of mine bought one a few years ago.He paid $1500. It is a 16 ga. It never did fit him well so he put on one of those Morgan adjustable stock plates. After that the lug broke off under the barrel. It is soldered to the underside of the barrel rib. He called several people who advertised that they work on Beretta's. No one would touch it. He finally got a local gunsmith to solder it back on. It shoots but he switched to his Bernedelli. It's also a 16 ga and cost him $500. He doesen't think too much of the Beretta.

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

wow, I wonder if that is comon or an isolated incident..............

Many of the pre-1970 Beretta O/U and SxS guns are soldered together intead of induction brazed like today. Soldering barrel sets together is less problematic than the brazing process due to the lower heat range required and the warpage problems that higher temperature range causes, especially with thinner walled barrels.

Soldering is reliable if done well. However, it is more delicate and more subject to failure from overheating or some type of incursion from more agressive gun cleaning solvents., especially the older ones designed to neutralize corrosive primer residues and remove lead fouling. I will not use ammonia based cleaning agents on any soldered barrel set. (Some folks damn WD-40, but the stuff has never damaged any of my older soldered guns.)

Browning FN O/U competition guns were noted for solder joint failures in their trap guns, especially in the warmer climes like Florida. Hardly a summer went by that a Broadway trap gun or three would not come apart during a long string of doubles at the old Orange County Trap and Skeet Club. However, Browning always would fix them. (90% then got sold into the used gun market and a Perazzi, a K-80, or a Citori Trap gun would take its place.)

The general Italian mass production gun parts producers were among the last who finally went to the more rugged brazing system. They are still catching up. They are dealing with the warpage problems the Japanese apparently solved over a decade ago.

Perazzi has always been one to sell nothing but perfect barrels. However, they have always specialized in competion guns. They had to in order to stay an industry leader. You pay big money for the accuracy assurance. They have traditionally rejected a lot of barrel sets to maintain a strict QC policy.

Beretta independantly worked it out and now seems to be pretty much on track again. However, if you get the unusual bad set that has slipped by QC, it is almost impossible to get satisfaction unless you take them to Acokeek, MD and threaten to beat a service department rep over the head with them. Then you might or might not get them replaced Rolling Eyes

. The actual beating is optional I suppose. I don't recommend it though.

However, some of the smaller, independant Italian barrel producers are still solving the problem and the different warranty policies of the various gun houses are not set up to handle such a serious problem. This is why I always look for bore problems here. It is not prejudice. It is simply a recognision of a problem still not solved completely. Until they do, I will carefully check those bores for alignment and straightness issues. I generally do it anyway. It's always a wise move.

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

excellent info,

Any easy way to check this while looking a gun over, or do you need a smith....
thanks

That depends on you. As with anything, experience is the best teacher. A gun that is obviously in clean, excellent shape is usually just that. If there is a problem, and the gun is of relatively recent manufacture, the maker will often fix any obvious but minor warranty issues. Its in their best interest.

Your own eyes are your best friend. this is true especially for modern, mass produced non-hand-assembled barrel sets and guns. Straight, round bores indictate good things. Curved, or elliptical bores might indicate problems. Looking through them from breech to muzzle will tell a lot. You can look through a tunnel or tube and see if it curves ahead. Its the same for barrels. Even seemingly minor runout or curves can indicate a problem. If you do not know how the interpret the total input your eye is giving you, pass over the gun and look for one with no issues. Eventually, you will learn what to look for just from the performance and results of shooting guns with good bores. so if it doesn't look straight, pass it over without comment and look at another untill you find one with nice straight round bores. these are production guns. There is a good one waiting to be appreciated. Let someone else buy the one with the curved barrels. there are plenty of unweary buyers for these ones.

Straight shooting barrels are far more important to a shooter than the nicer piece of walnut. Some companies and traders know that a nice piece of wood on an lower grade gun will distract the buyer from looking further than the surface. Anytime I find higher grade wood on a standard gun, I start looking for problems. If I don't find one, and the price is for a standard gun I'm looking for, I buy. But I've seen too many questionable guns baited with nice wood for the less informed buyer. Look first. Then fall in love. Don't buy a frog dressed up like prince charming. Wink

The rap test is a good one. Hold a bare barrel set by the chamber end lightly between your fingers and rap the barrels lightly with a solid non-marring object like a wood dowel. A nice ring indicates a solidly soldered set. A dull sound or buzzing means trouble.

Look any visible soldered joints over carefully. Any gaps or pinholes are problem spots where contaminants can enter and work havoc from the inside over time. Dull corroded looking joints are a trouble sign too.

Any gun that shows obvious signs of neglect like accumulated scum and junk in the corners and crevices like old rust and such means it was probably cleaned up just good enough to look good to an inexperienced eye. Any gun that has been neglected is a risky purchase. Buy it cheap enough to cover what might come, or pass on it. you will see a ton of these guns at most gun show tables. Shopping there is only for the experienced if you are looking for a shooter and not a display model or relic.

Just remember, buying used, especially old used, is a risk you assume. A gunsmith can spot obvious issues, but no smith can gaurantee any old used gun without disassembling it. Most sellers won't allow this level of inspection and certification unless perhaps they know the smith and have a surety against damage from the inspection process. If they are willing, you can bet the gun will pass 99% of the time. However, even a lot of smiths will not accept this work. It carries too many risks for them and it is never as profitable or satisfying as actually fixing a gun. Caveat Emptor!

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

words of wisdom..........
Until I build up some more experience, it maybe better to look at something newer...
Thanks for your time.

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

Well, apparently there was a contact over the weekend and the gun is tentatively sold............hummmmmmm....best of luck to the new owner.....
I will keep the quest going...

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Concerning the solder issue and the ring test . . . there's only one right way to do this. Suspend the barrels by hooking your index finger through the lump, in the little C-shaped notch where it engages the hinge pin. If you actually hold the barrels themselves, that will deaden the tone. They don't all ring like church bells, but you should get some sort of a ringing tone, and like Guy said, not a thunk or a rattle. Something else you can do is hold the barrels by either end in both hands and tip them back and forth. If there is loose solder under the ribs, you can hear it rattling around. I had an Ithaca SKB sxs with which I did not do that test, mainly because I'd never encountered an SKB with a rib issue. Gun dealer found it. Would've saved myself some money if I'd found it myself. (I was trading it in.) You can also go up and down the ribs, pushing on them with thumb and index finger. If they flex visibly, there's a problem. The ring test is a good one, but it does not catch all barrel/rib problems.

Absolutely right Larry. But then again, what field test method is bulletproof. That is why trading for used guns is a risk that we who dabble always assume once the money hits the counter. Sooner or later, we all get burned. Its just part of the process---sort of like voting for a politician, except in gun trading, folks are more honest and the outcome is more in our favor. Laughing

Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 134

amen to that Laughing

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Just to elaborate on what Larry and 16GG said about ring testing bbls: You dont really put your fingers through the lump. Rather, you hook the lump on your index finger and allow the bbls to loosely hang perpendicular to your hoizontal index finger. The bbls will hang loosely from your fingers, but be carefull, sometimes they can slip off your finger. Then, I just give the bbls a flick as if i'm flicking a bug off them (fingernail strikes first) this produces a nice ring if there's one to be had. A pencil will work too. Whatever you do don't just grab the lump tightly and attempt to get a ring - you won't get one. The bbls have to be hanging freely from your finger to get a ring. Also, while your at it, hold the gun with the action close by the bbls with the butt end toward the floor and shake it a bit torsionally stretching and shaking to feel for loose bbl to receiver play. Good lucj

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Yup, a flick with a fingernail does work--although a wooden pencil or some similar piece of soft wood is better, if you happen to have one. (Something like a piece of dowel.) Strike all up and down the barrels. If you're working with an OU with the typical vent rib (or a sxs that happens to have a vent rib) you won't get quite the nice "ringy dingy" (to quote Lily Tomlin) that you get with a solid rib, but it's still a good test.

"One ringy dingy. Two ringy dingies. Is this the party to whom I am speaking? Snarfle Snort!!" Laughing

Always wondered how to spell snarfle!!

Well, there you go. Very Happy

Lily is a trip without having to leave the farm.