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< 16ga. Guns ~ Fox Sterlingworth 16 ? |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:11 pm
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 30
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I saw a 16 ga. Fox Sterlingworth SXS today in a shop that has a lot used guns. Nothing remarkable about it except it's incredibly lightweight. It looks as if it's had a lot of use but there are no cracks or repairs in the stock that I can see. The butt plate is a black plastic with horizontal lines and it has a black plastic cap on the pistol grip. The marking on the side of the action read Fox Sterlingworth and Philidelphia. The screws on action do look iike they've had a screwdriver in them but the gun seems very functional, just well worn. Hope someone can advise me if this is a collectable or not and what it's value may be. It's tagged at 795.00. Oh...barrels looked good as well, believe they were 26", not sure on the chokes.
Thanks for the assistance. Sage1 |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:34 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2175
Location: Kansas High Plains
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If you're right on the condition, run, DO NOT WALK, back to the shop. Offer them less, of course, but do not leave the shop without the gun for that price. It's not really collectable but would make somebody a great shooter; even if you don't want it you can probably make some money on it. By the way, that shop's not any where near me, is it? |
_________________ I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:40 pm
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Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1257
Location: Nebraska
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Hurry on in! Ask if you can shoot it and return for repair if required, but that is a very good price on that gun even if it needed a little work.
kgb |
_________________ Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:15 pm
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Sage1 you are mistaken my good man.
You are talking about a Philladelphia Fox in 16 gauge no less.
A few last checks to make before you negotiate your deal. Check the top lever to make sure it is right of center or at least centered. Dismount the barrels to check to see if the serial numbers on the frame, barrels and forend match. Then, and this can be a bit tricky if you haven't done it before, support the barrels by the reciever hook and tap the barrels along the full length of the barrels to check to see if the ribs are tight. They should ring like a chime.
If the gun passes the above inspection and in the condition you described less than $800.00 is a very good price.
Buy it, shoot it and then tell me it is not a remarkable gun. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:34 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2175
Location: Kansas High Plains
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Twice Barrel is right, of course. But Twice, unless the rib is falling off, the top lever spins free and the stock and forend are two different colors, tell me you wouldn't pay south of 800 bucks for a 16 ga. Philly Fox! What a candidate for a restoration or an upgrade job!! There was a guy on the UJ board who bought a near mint Utica 16 and was gonna do an upgrade job on it; the advice: don't touch it, keep it and shoot it forever! Betcha he would have jumped on this gun in a west Kansas minute ( ). Even if this gun comes in a basket it's worth $800, no? |
_________________ I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:46 pm
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Fin you are right of course but I'm a Fox guy like you.
You don't know how much restraint it's taking me not to PM Sage1 to find out where this little jewell is hiding. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:01 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2175
Location: Kansas High Plains
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Me too! I'll hold him, you beat it out of him!
But wait: bet you already PM'd him, you sneaky devil! |
_________________ I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:49 pm
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No Fin I'm still showing gentelmanly restraint but I noticed that you were making subtile inquiries in your initial post.
Besides I have my Fox lust under control, at least for a while longer. I just picked up a 1939 Utica gun in 90+% condition about a month ago with the most finely struck barrels I have seen on any Sterlingworth Utica or Philadelphia. The only thing keeping it from grading higher is a little carry wear on the underside of the receiver and the finsh on the buttstock which is flaking the original varnish and a couple of dings on the forend. |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:35 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2175
Location: Kansas High Plains
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Dear Twice Barrel,
I hate you.
Your friend,
Fin |
_________________ I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook |
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Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:46 pm
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 30
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Thanks for the input...could you enlighten me on where a Philidelphia gun falls into the Fox timeline. What year do you think it's from and was it built when AH Fox first came out with the Sterlingworth's or after the company was sold off. You guys are welcome to PM me and if I don't pick this up I'll pass on to you where it is.
Sage |
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:09 am
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The Sterlingworth model was introduced in 16 gauge by the AH Fox Gun Cmpany of Philadelphia in 1913 the year after the 20 gauge model was introducedas an entry level shot gun to compete with the Parker Trojan and Ithica Flues model.
The Fox guns in 16 and 20 gauge share the same receiver so many refer to a Fox 16 guage as being built on a 20 gauge frame.
Unlike th Parker Trojan the Sterlingworth used the same design of the Fox graded guns. Just less engraving and not quite as fancy wood.
They were produced in Philadelphia until Fox was sold to Savage in 1929/30.
Savage continued assembeling guns from Fox parts into the early 30s when they started making parts themselves. These are known as transition guns. I have a Sterlingworth 12 guage with a 1928 serial number and Savage markings so I know Savage sold a number of Fox built guns under their trade name.
Production of AH Fox shotguns continued by Savage at their Utica New York facility until the early 40s whe Savage changed over to war production. Production of the Fox guns was not resumed after WWII although a few may have been assembled from left over parts.
Need to know the serial number to give a date of manufacture. |
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:13 pm
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 30
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I was able to get back in the shop and look at the Fox sterlingworth again. A closer inspection showed the tang lever to still be off to the right and the action is tight. I was surprised to find a small ding in the right barrel I didn't see on my first visit. I don't think the ding will have any effect when the gun is fired but if you run your hand down the barrel you can feel it. A close look and you can see it. There is also a small crack in the stock which looks to have been well repaired. You can see a line where the crack was and like I reported earlier the screws look like someone has been in the action. Triggers are crisp, safety works and instead of ejectors it looks like these are extractors. I couldn't find any marks telling me what the barrel chokes are but I'm guessing they're IC/M, the barrels are 26".
Negotiations went poorly...I offered 400.00 cash not really expecting him to take it. Then 500.00 and then 600.00, all no deal. Next out came the credit card...offered 700.00 but the dealer wants to hold out for 750.00 plus tax and background which will put me near 800.00, several hundred more than I was planning. I not sure if the little barrel ding really knocks the value out of this little gun. I'll have to decide by tomorrow if I'm going to pick it up. It's been in the store two weeks. Dealer said he'll haggle after it's been on the rack 2 to 3 months. I don't think it would last that long. I know I'm not the only person out there with SOCD (Shotgun Obsessive Compulsive Disorder).
I'm interested in knowing if barrel dings can be removed and if screws that would match the originals are available from Galazan or others. I also noticed that one of the drift pins in the action was off to one side a bit more than the other. I have a BSS 20 that had a pin that would work it's way out to the side when fired. This may or may not indicate something similiar.
My thanks for all the assistance.
sage1 |
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:21 am
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Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 743
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Sage, even with the factors you mentioned, the gun's still worth the asking price. Did you look down the bore to see if you could spot the dent on the inside? (You may have to look from the muzzle if you can't spot it from the breech.) Small dents can be lifted fairly easily. And if it's not visible (or barely visible) in the bore, there's not much of a reason to do anything with it.
One factor you do want to check carefully, since you intend to shoot the gun, is fit. Some of the Foxes, especially the older ones, had fairly short stocks with a lot of drop. Short is pretty easy to fix, with a pad. Too much drop requires bending the stock, a much more expensive and iffy proposition. If you can't see some rib and the bead when you mount the gun, you probably want to leave it on the rack in spite of the good price.
A couple comments on the history of the Sterlingworth. The SW predated the Parker Trojan, so it would be more accurate to say that Parker brought out the Trojan to compete with the SW (and with the LC Smith and Ithaca Field Grades) rather than the other way around. "Flues" is a model name, not a grade designation. Ithaca made them in various grades, the higher ones of which would have competed with the graded Fox guns, not the SW's. It would have been the Ithaca Field Grade guns, either Flues or the New Ithaca Double (NID) model which replaced the Flues in 1925, with which the SW competed. |
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:30 am
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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Another thing before you shell out the money---- check the chokes. 26" barrels were the exception, not the norm. |
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:36 pm
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Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 30
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We'll I bought the Fox SW today. Final price was 700.00 but tax and background check brought everything up to 775.00. Took it out and shot on clays and boy does it hit hard. Chokes are tight. Comes up great, swings well...kicks like Grandma boot'n the cat off the porch. Don't know yet if this will be a keeper but if it is I'd like to redo the case color on the action, reblue the barrels and refinish the wood. In the meantime, i hope it'll put a few birds in the bag for me.
Many thanks for all the advice.
sage |
Last edited by sage1 on Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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