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A thread for the discussion of these amazing dogs.........

From reading everything I can find and speaking with Pudelpointer breeders, this is what I know to be true, in a very brief nutshell:

The Pudelpointer originated in Germany from a cross of the pudel (poodle) and pointer (probably English Pointer). The poodle was very intelligent, worked well in water, and excelled as a hunting dog, but is not readily recognized as such nowadays.

The pointer was also a well-established and talented hunter. The two breeds possessed very different atributes and capabilities.

Sometime in the early 1800's, experiments and/or accidental breedings led to the merging of the two breeds. The result was an extremely versatile hunting dog, blending the talents and traits of the two breeds.

Apparently this guy, Ältmeister Hegewald, is reponsible for seriously diving into the creation of the breed with intentional, controlled breedings in the later 1800's.

They say dogs tend to look like their owners...........you guys be the judges. Here is Hegewald:

The Pudelpointer was first brought to the United States from Germany by Bodo Winterhelt (still working with the breed in Oregon) in 1956. My dog (Jaeger) came directly from Mr. Winterhelt.

Jaeger.....

Here is a link to an excellent site outlining the history of the Pudelpointer. They prohibit reproduction of their material, but I think I am safe posting the link:

http://www.pudelpointer.ca/

There are now two distinct groups perpetuating the breed in North America:

The PCNA (Pudelpointer Club of North America)
http://www.pcna.org/

CAPA (Canadian American Pudelpointer Association)
http://pudelpointer-capa.com/index.htm

Okay folks, let the information, comments, corrections and photos flow!!!

Joined: 12 Oct 2007 Posts: 14 Location: Northern Ohio

Birdswatter, I will be surprized if there are enough PP owners on this board to be able to respond to this thread in any great numbers.
In addistion to the PCNA and CAPA there is also a breeders group that was formed this year called the North American Pudelpointer Breeders Alliance (NAPBA) with breeders that subscribe to a little higher standard for breeding located at www.pudelpointer.org.
In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of considering a PP is that they are not recognized by the AKC and there are no "show" dogs to infect the gene pool. Even in Canada, where they are recognized by the CKC, I don't think anyone has tried to take them to the show ring.
They are most versatile of the versatiles along with the GWP and they have the best temperaments. I have never seen a mean one.

Bill

As I respond to your thread (nicely wrote, by the way). I am minutes from driving to Montana to hunt with Indiana Jones my 8 year old Pulelpointer (varmit - as I affectionatly call him Smile

) We're gonna work some Huns, Pheasants, Sharpies, Maybe Sage Grouse, Blues and Ruffs. I can't wait.

I too got my dog from Bodo; and am a proud member of PCNA. Am "on the list" for another dog, but, due to family circumstances (long story) have put that on the back burner. Crying or Very sad

Hopefully, I'll get another in a year and a half.

I think they're great dogs. But, I also realize that their are at least 10 other breeds I'd like as well. GSP, Munsterlanders, Wirehair, Visla, etc.

I've been spoiled. Indy is a way better hunter than I am. Any bad traits he has are because of my training (or lack of). NOT faults of his. I've been to 2 hunt tests put on by the PCNA. Those folks have a real committment to breeding great dogs. The quantity of approved breedings speaks volumes about that.

I'm off, can't write anymore. Wanna go hunting. Wish me luck. As I wish the best season to all - even those who don't hunt with a Pudelpointer Razz

keith

Guest

Blathens.....You responded with info I did not have, so mission accomplished. I totally agree with you on the absence of AKC pressure being a positive thing. I have owned other breeds of dog (and other animals) where the influence of such organizations and their quest for conformation "perfection" are ruinous. It is clear that the unrealistic expectations of such groups and the resulting genetic management leads to inbreeding depression. No big mystery why many of those breeds are plagued with hip problems, eyelid problems and personality disorders. All for a trophy or ribbon!

I also admire the many other hunting breeds. However, I am not familiar with the intricacies of each. by starting this thread, I figured those with Drats, GWP's etc might follow with info threads on their breeds and accompanying contributions from other owners.

In my opinion, there has not been a steady stream of stimulating reading on the site for awhile, and I thought it would add some interesting information on topics closely linked to hunting and 16 gauge ownership.

Maybe it is just me, but the personalities who seek out unusual and not so run-of-the-mill guns seem to also tend towards lesser-known, less common dogs. Just a theory.

Manofthewoods........good luck on your hunt, have a great time.

I picked a Pudelpointer because I was able to follow behind a few while volunteering as field gunner for several NAVHDA tests. They performed better than most other breeds that I observed, but I would also like to own a VDD. There are also some very good Large Munsterlanders.
I would not buy another dog registered in an "all breed" registry. ( AKC, CKC, and unfortunately, now NAVHDA) As Bodo Winterhelt has recently observed in Pointing Dog Journal, all-breed registries are the ruination of many breeds. Dedicated breed clubs with a breed warden are the way to go. All else is mass marketing IMHO. NAVHDA no longer recognizes the Pedigree Act in Canada, and has forced breeders to register with them in order to test dogs in the NAVHDA system. WE cannot resigter dogs in two systems, it is illegal. Sad state of affairs for a club founded in Canada! This in turn has forced a split in our Canadian gun dog Breeders, many of whom will no longer register dogs with NAVHDA. Some of the best Pudelpointer breeders, as well as the Large Munsterlander breeders have been facing this issue. That's a shame, but the new Versatile Hunting Dog Federation will grow out of the controversy.

Joined: 12 Oct 2007 Posts: 14 Location: Northern Ohio

Longwalker, how do you test dogs in NAVHDA or run in NSTRA if you can only register dogs with one registry?
I bred my Czech import GWP, Ken Vospet, to a nice bitch up in Saskatoon earlier this year. The owner of the bitch tried to explain the registry rules but it didn't make sense to me. I flew up to Saskatoon and brought 6 of the pups back to the States, all with CKC registries. They are now also registered with AKC and NAVHDA.
The owner of the bitch is a Dutch dairy farmer in Asquith. Are you anywhere near Saskatoon? He tests in NAVHDA but has never seen a PP.

Bill

blatherns,
I did some checking on the dual registration issues before answering, and it's quite complicated. The Pedigree Act in Canada does not allow Canadian born dogs to be represented as "purebred" or "registered" if the registry is foriegn. They must be registered with a recognized Canadian breed association, which may be CKC, or one of the specific breeder's clubs. Ten years ago, my old Large Munsterlander ran in the NAVHDA tests with Large Munsterlander Club of North America papers. They were accepted by NAVHDA, no problem. Now, NAVHDA requires all dogs tested by them to also be registered by NAVHDA. BUT the dog cannot be legally represented in Canada as NAVHDA registered. Make sense so far? It gets more complicated.
Some breed associations have serious concerns about the NAVHDA registry. They think it may dilute their efforts to produce excellent dogs. NAVHDA has indicated that they will not recognize the concerns of some breed specific organizations, such as some Pudelpointer breeders, the LMCNA, VDD breeders, and others who may disqualify a dog from breeding because the dog does not meet the breed standard of that breed association. So some disqualified dogs may actually be registed in NAVHDA despite the objection of the breed association.
Canadian hunters and breeders are left with a very uncomfortable situation. It is not illegal to register a Canadian born dog with NAVHDA, but it is illegal to advertise or represent it here as NAVHDA registered.
The Versatile Hunting Dog Federaton has been formed to address the registry concern, and return to the original aim of NAVHDA, a standardized evaluation method for hunters and breeders to select the best dogs to hunt with and to breed. The qualifications required for breeding is left to the individual breed associations.
I am a long time supporter of NAVHDA, and find their new emphasis on their registry unfortunate. I wish they would change their mind.
In the meantime, our Saskatoon Gun Dog Club has run both NAVHDA and VHDF tests to accomodate the variety of dogs and breeders here.

I cannot comment on the NSTRA, since I have no experience with them.

I am president of the Saskatoon club. I know the GWP breeder you mention, and can assure you that he has seen my dog at several training days. If your stud is a good match for his bitch I'm sure you have a real nice litter there.

Joined: 12 Oct 2007 Posts: 14 Location: Northern Ohio

Longwalker, thanks for the explanation. It seems odd to me that the Canadian Government would involve itself in the control of dog registries.

As far as NAVHDA goes and it's registry I understand the concern breed clubs have with it. However, as far as the pudelpointer goes, we would still be in the dark ages if we were still under the control of the PCNA. Pudelpointers are doing better now than they ever have and for those that want a PP pup, it is only a 6 month to 1 year wait instead of a 3 year wait as it used to be.

Right now it seems that most PP breeders are on the same page. There are some "violations" however but perhaps because the gene pool is still relatively small and there aren't many "bad" genes to speak of, most breedings are producing very good litters.

Perhaps I misunderstood Arjen regarding his seeing a PP. I will be talking to him this week. His GWP litter did turn out very well.

Bill

Bill, the Gov't here is not really very interested in regulating dogs, but has not "excluded" dogs from a more general law originally meant to regulate the livestock industry. A great many dollars are generated selling Canadian breeding stock and there were some abuses in the past. My professional career is in the livestock industry so I can personally relate to the reasons.
I agree with you that the Pudelpointers have a generally good gene pool. I have not seen very many, but i have not seen a single one I wouldn't like to own. Can't say that about many other breeds, but Wirehairs are also very good!
I'm glad that breeders are passionate about their business/vocation/hobby. It keeps things interesting!

The amazing thing about there temperment is they have so much drive and my dog is very Sharp he killed 29 Ground hogs this year But very gentle and calm with my kids. He gets along great with other dogs and never starts a fight. The balance they have is really amazing usually if you have all that drive you have a dog on the edge who you can never really trust. I feel so relaxed at home in the field or at freinds with my dogs its great. The breed suits my life style and hunting style so good I don't see my self owning another breed. As far as the AKC NAVHDA just joined forces with them I don't think this will help the future of Versitile Dogs. Once dogs start getting bred for color and body traits not nose and natural ability the very specific traits we want will be lost.

We had been married almost 30 years before getting our first dog ... a Cedarwoods Pudelpointer. My wife never wanted a house dog .... now that we have him, she tells me we will always have a pudelpointer ... she loves that dog so much. And I have my UT Pz 1 dog to boot ... and at 2.5 years old I have many years of fine dog work to look forward to.

I have seen great veratiles dogs in our NAVHDA chapter of various breeds, but if you live with a pudelpointer for any amount of time you're spoiled for life. You won't want to ever replace it with another breed ... great temperment and I argue that you can't improve on its hunting skills or drive.

An interesting fact about the GWP /DD is that the primary breed used in its development is the Pudelpointer. One of the members of my NAVHDA chapter was looking at his DD's papers and noticed the designation of MLPP. Not knowing what it ment he did some research and found that DD's with that designation have the best drive and often make the best hunters ... it stands for 'Mother Line Pudelpointer'

2 more Cedarwoods dogs earned ther Versitile Champion titles at this years NAVHDA invitational test.