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Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Wisconsin

I've been a hunter and shooter my entire life and have been reloading for over 20 years. I load both rifle and shotgun with some years exceeding 5000 rounds. I thought I had a good handle on this until I picked up a 16 guage Model 12 (serial says a 1917) in a chance encounter. It was in very rough shape but some tender loving care made it functional again. Then I started looking for ammo and components and the roof fell in.

Now I have a ton of questions that I hope I can impose upon you to answer.

I'm assuming that due to the year of manufacture this gun has a 2 9/16 chamber. I took it to a smith for checking. He slipped the barrel off, disappeared into the back room, came out and pronounced it a 2 3/4. This was without measuring or taking into account the chamber ring still in the action. I'm skeptical. Some people have said not to worry that 2 3/4 plastic hulls have plenty of clearance in the 2 9/16 chamber anyway, just don't shoot paper. I tried a half dozen Rem. 2 3/4. They shot fine but I obviously have no pressure data. Ejection was a problem with about every 3rd shell hanging up in the ejection port. I'd like to at least be able to shoot single trap with them just to empty the hulls. What say you?

I started looking for reloading components and my head is whirling with wads, hulls, 2 3/4, 2 9/16, 2 1/2. Crimped, roll crimped, tapered hulls etc, etc. I thought this would be a grab your MEC 600jr, some components and go. Like I do with my 12 guage. (and, yes, from your posts I realize I just used a swearword here) My goal is to use this for some occasional sporting clays and trap but, more importantly, I'd like to find a hunting load to take a turkey with it this spring.

I did find some wads today in a dusty box in the back corner of my local gun shop. They are Rems but I don't think they are the SP16 talked about on here. They were in a couple of plastic bags, 425 wads in all. Very fade paper in one of the bags said they were Rem. Power Piston 1 1/8 oz. wads #W29934. I haven't seen those mentioned on here. Owner bought them from an out of business store about 10 years ago. Anybody have any loads for them in the black rem hulls?

Sorry for the long post but this damn gun has an addictive aspect to it. I've got a ton of questions on roll crimping that will just have to wait. Thanks in advance for your help. RD

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

RD: First, I guess I would have a qualified smith check your chamber length again. That said, however, I would also recommend joining the low pressure reloading group. Lots of recipe's for short chamber loads as well as 2 3/4" loads. Also, don't be fooled by the "low pressure" moniker. Lots of good modern loads listed also. You can buy 16ga. components from Ballistic Products and other on line retailers. Hulls are usually the tapered kind (Black Remington Game Load) or the straight wall hull like Cheddite (also the newer Winchester Super X case) and the Fiocchi.

To shoot lighter loads ( 3/4 and 7/8 oz.) you will need to use a filler or cut down your hull. Lots of info on this in the Low Pressure Group info also.

I recently got a 2 1/2" SXS and have been having a blast learning to cut down and roll crimp this shorter load. Stick with it, enjoy the learning curve and keep asking questions. You will get a lot of good information on this site!

Matt

Welcome Aboard;

Just remember, once bitten by the 16 ga. bug there is no turning back.

Take it from one who knows. Wink

Just to confuse you some more they make an all brass 16 ga. shell that is 2 1/2".

Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 23 Location: Ontario

This is a quick way I use to check chamber length, a dial caliper is handy.

Cut a 16 hull so you have a 1" length of plastic for an insert, make sure the ends are square. With the barrel off the reciever insert it in the chamber until it just contacts the forcing cone; measure the distance now to the other end of the plastic insert to the end of the chamber and add 1" or what ever length you made your insert. Note this measurement and add to it the depth of the chamber ring to the face of the bolt which should be about 1/4". This should tell you your chamber length.

I bought an old 1913 20ga M12 sometime ago and this is what I did in the store to determine if the chamber had been reamed to 2-3/4 from the original 2-1/2" it measured 2-3/4".

Also the ejection port length should be 2-1/2" if the gun is 2-3/4" chambered. If it is chambered for the shorter shell it will be less.

With my 1955 M12 16ga. a shell will hang on the ejection port the odd time, there is not a lot of clearance.

Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 23 Location: Ontario

This is a quick way I use to check chamber length, a dial caliper is handy.

Cut a 16 hull so you have a 1" length of plastic for an insert, make sure the ends are square. With the barrel off the reciever insert it in the chamber until it just contacts the forcing cone; measure the distance now to the other end of the plastic insert to the end of the chamber and add 1" or what ever length you made your insert. Note this measurement and add to it the depth of the chamber ring to the face of the bolt which should be about 1/4". This should tell you your chamber length.

I bought an old 1913 20ga M12 sometime ago and this is what I did in the store to determine if the chamber had been reamed to 2-3/4 from the original 2-1/2" it measured 2-3/4".

Also the ejection port length should be 2-1/2" if the gun is 2-3/4" chambered. If it is chambered for the shorter shell it will be less.

With my 1955 M12 16ga. a shell will hang on the ejection port the odd time, there is not a lot of clearance.

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

I have a 1923 made Mod 12 (16ga) and it has a 2 9/16" chamber. George Mardis in his book on the Mod 12 states that in 16 ga this was the standard chamber length from Winchester until about 1929 when SAAMI changed specs. If unaltered, your gun should have 2 9/16" chambers.

Don't be fooled by the 2 1/2" nonsense. Early American 16's were chambered for 2 9/16" long hulls, which equate metrically to 65mm.

16 ga chamber length gages are available from Brownells and are not very expensive. They check 2 3/4" and 2 9/16" chamber lengths. The cut off hull length checking method will work if you are carefull but the hulls are smaller in diameter than the chamber so you wil no doubt end up reporting a slightly longer chamber than actual using that method.

The ejection port on my gun measures 2.428" in length. It is unaltered from stock. I cannot eject any fired hull longer than 2 9/16" (65mm) although they eject that length each and every time, both paper or plastic. I have a flat of 67mm (2 5/8") and they hang up each and every time.

I got my gun from my father upon his death, and it was his pride and joy and he was deadly with it and never wanted another shotgun. Years ago I thought perhaps I would have this gun altered for him to shoot 2 3/4" (70mm) hulls as a Christmas present and so contacted Winchester. I got sent to their custom shop and they told me that while it could be done THEY DID NOT RECOMMEND IT as there was much more involved than just lengthening the chamber. The hull transort mechanism was too short and needed to be reworked, as did the ejection port. They told me that the receiver on the newer 2 3/4" guns was a touch longer than the old ones, and that getting the shorter ones reworked correctly SO THAT THEY WORKED EACH AND EVERY TIME was not easy and thus was VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE and that I could buy several newer Mod 12's for the price of reworking the old one! Needless to say, the gun is to this day unaltered. I have been told that certain of the old gunsmiths out there did modify short chambered Mod 12's in the past, but do not know how successful such alterations were.

Having said that, there is no reason that you cannot enjoy using your short chambered Mod 12 in any capacity you so desire. I have reloaed for 2 9/16" shells for years, using a cheap Lee Loadall. Either purchase 65mm Cheddites from your favorite supplier or 2 3/4" hulls and cut them down to 2 9/16". Fired 2 3/4" hulls can also be used but they are more of a pain to cut down accurately. BPI, Precision Reloading and others offer wads and BPI offers books with recipes for 16 ga 2 9/16" loads, although they erroneously call them 2 1/2". However, not all those listed loads work - at least for me. My recommendation would be to join the Low Pressure Group and thus you can deal directly with those who have already gone this route. There is also the option of buying commercial short shells. I would recommend RST (www.rstshells.com) as they use American sized copper plated shot, which most of the foreign brands do not and they are low pressure and will work perfectly in your Mod 12. At least they do in mine.

Bear in mind that the older guns were not proofed, nor were they intended for todays full up high pressure 2 3/4" loads, although the Mod 12 is certainly a tough gun. However, I wouldn't use it for steel shot.

Enjoy!

P

Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Wisconsin

Popski, Thanks for the reply. I'm now certain, using the techniques outlined here, that my gun is an unaltered 2 9/16. A used MEC 600 JR showed up in a UPS box on my doorstep. And I'm on my way. Just need to get a bunch of smaller powder bushings and probably a roll crimper. It almost appears visually to me that I can trim to 2 9/16 and roll crimp with low pressure loads whose total internal component length is nearly identical to 2 3/4" folded crimp loads. I have both Blue Dot and Longshot on hand.
While I'm not trying to make a 12 guage out of a 16 guage gun I do want to eventually assemble a 1 1/8 load of #5s or 6s for turkey hunting.

Still wondering if it's safe to shoot 2 3/4 RGL in this gun just to get hulls. Comments anyone? RD

Rockdog, Popski gave you good advise. I would buy 2 9/16" Cheddites from either Graf & Sons $11.99 a hundred. They come primed with Cheddite 209 primers and there are plenty of loads in the 16 ga. Reloaders Group if you decide to join,
If you do reload the shorter shells you will either have to buy or make a 1/4" spacer to go under the last two stations of the reloader if you are going to 6 crimp or do nothing if you roll crimp. Personally I like the roll crimp on the new shells, but if you decide to 6 crimp you will need the 1/4" spacer and you should get the brass starter crimp.

Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Wisconsin

Thanks David. I was on the road today and went by a Cabela's. On a whim I stopped in and they had 2 1/2 shells on hand in two sizes. I took all they had at 10.99 a box. Now I have some hulls to reload, just have to empty them first. RD