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Hi all from England Smile

Here's an interesting idea.
I was reading "Rough Shooting" by Mike Swan, an English author, the other day and came across this little gem.
He states in the book that "the best thing which I ever did for my shooting-and particularly at high birds, was to have my chokes opened out to improved cylinder.......I find open boring and 28g (1oz) loads of No. 7 shot ideal for almost all of my shooting" By this he means for "all normal game shooting and wildfowling" and imp' cyl' in both barrells.
Quite a statement for those of us who have been used to more choke and bigger loads and pellet size...5 and 6's for Pheasant, 4's for Hare and Duck and 5's for Rabbits etc etc.
Of course you will have to convert a little. I believe that what we call improved cylinder (5 thou constriction) you call 1/4 choke (10 thou of choke constriction)
Since posting this on a British site I had a reply from a guy who has read Sir Ralph Payne Galloway's book from 1913. In it Sir Ralph rigged up a series of cradles and pulleys to present dead pheasants at normal game shooting heights. Sir Ralph then shot at these and then analysed the pellet penetration and number of hits for each normal game load and pellet size.
Can you guess what his conclusion was way back in 1913-you guessed right-1oz of No. 7's from an improved cylinder barrell (5 thou of choke).
What does anybody think.

Cheers Wink

I don't think the theory is that far off, based on my own empirical evidence. When I go to SD, the bottom barrel of my Citori is always choked IC, the top M, and I shoot hard #6s. While on especially windy days (straight line winds 45+ and gusts to 60), this setup has not been as effective as I'd like, for most other conditions, I simply don't seem to have a problem.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Lodi, CA

I am going to go out on a limb and say this is nuts.

That 1 oz. of #7 shot in an IC might be fine for close work on birds, but you are going to have to do a lot more tests to convince me that a load like that will bring down wild ducks beyond 30 meters.

Heck, I have shot my fair share ducks and have found that you can smack them hard with 1 1/4 oz. of tungsten matrix #2s and they will still fly off leaving a pile of feathers floating to the ground. Mr. Mallard can be a real tough bird when wild.

I sure would like to know what those "normal" hunting distances were.

Guest

In the traditional driven style of hunting, most of the shot are incoming over the top where the bird's vitals are exposed. Most of the hunting that we do in this country is considered "rough" by most Europeans. Since we're shooting most of birds when they're going away, we need more choke and larger pellets to get through the vitals rather than doing an a** shot and crippling the bird. You can try what the article stated but my run of thumb is when I pull the trigger and the bird doesn't go down (provided I had the correct lead and cover), I go up a notch with either larger pellets or tighter chokes....

To each their own...

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Lodi, CA

Terry --nice post.

To echo what you said, Comanche Hills is near where I live and they have a "Flighted Mallard" shoot that is quite expensive and popular with some individuals (I personally despise it).

What they do is buy Mallards in bulk and then corn feed them from a large cage on shore next to a large pond. Since the ducks are fed everyday as they grow older, they are released and hand out in the pond from feeding to feeding. They are almost like pets. When a "hunt" (a shoot really) is scheduled, they trap the ducks in the feeding cage and then take them to a nearby hill. From the top of the hill, the ducks are released and naturally fly back to the pond. Shooters are place in between the hill and the pond and the whole experience seems similar to what a "driven" hunt must be like. Most birds come across straight overhead and I bet a good shot could drop these birds easily with #7 shot lead and they would drop. Since these birds are not really wild, they they are hit they seem to fold like doves. However, I have found many cripples after such shoots while working my dog on planted pheasants and chuckar.

However, this is very different from shooting ducks at a national wildlife refuge like Grey Lodge. Some of those ducks are tough as nails and I have hit them hard only to see them fall 25 meters through the air and catch themselves right before they hit the ground and fly away. That is why when hunting ducks and geese I like pellets that break bones and penetrate to vitals --especially in the wings.

Guest

If we actually place a financial cost of chasing "wild" birds versus shooting preserve birds, there is no way the cost of a wild bird is "cheaper" than a $20 preserve bird. Whether someone shoots a pen raised duck, pheasant or chukar, that bird had the "opportunity" of "living" in a protected environment rather than their wild cousin. I prefer not to look down at someone who shoots at a preserve for any of the described birds because they may be under various constraints that shooting at such places may be their only opportunity to hunt or they have limited ability or physical issues. I rather have a preserve hunter on our side rather than someone who is against all forms of fair chase. The only issue I may have is someone who only shootis preserves and deems themselves an expert at that particular quary. I actually have a friend who went to one of the preserves and was bragging to me on how well he did and how good he was at hunting. When I finally got my fill of his tall tales, I reminded him that hunting a preserve with their prepaid planted birds and bragging how many birds you get is like going to a house of ill repute and telling everyone that you got s*x there....

My thoughts for tonight...

my 2 cents.

First, I'd like to commend all for thoughtful comments.

I've thought about all the bits and pieces described in the post - from chokes to shot sizes. I'll have to admit that I under range my guns all the time; what I mean is that I don't estimate the birds distance as well as i should. I always think they are farther than they really are. i notice that i get better as the season matures. How this translates to chokes and shots is that many of my shots on say pheasants for example are closer than i think, and, IC 7.5 will actually bring 'em down. That's typically not what I shoot though. In my O/U I'll go Mod/Full or Mod/IM with 6&5's or 6&4's or if it's windy maybe 5&4's. If/when I hit 'em they come down - and now! But we're talking realy wild birds, some hold, some don't! Maybe I should consider IC/Mod with 6's and 5's more often. Don't have the gumption to shoot 7.5's, unless maybe it's opening day.

Regarding preserve "hunting"... I don't criticize it at all. But, I know it's not the same as chasing wild birds. It's great for dog training, etc. Not my preference, but, given hassle factor and gas prices - yep, preserve shooting is cheaper, at least it would be for me. But, cost isn't my first factor I consider when I think about how and where I hunt.

Best to all Smile

Joined: 21 Aug 2006 Posts: 12 Location: Kansas

If this were a live conversation, I'd tell you about Sharptail hunting in Idaho. Being from Kansas and mainly hunting bobwhites, I had no idea a 12 bore could be effective at such a range. Thanks for taking me John.

Without any reservation, most guns are overchoked with today's efficient ammunition. I am not a ballistician, a scientist, or a theorist. Rather a hunter of wild birds only with Pointers in Kansas. I tell inexperienced shooters and hunters to leave their mod and full chokes at home, those are for turkeys...gooble...gobble.

Which one of you "far killers" can tell me the lead on a rising & qaurtering pheasant at 50 yards with 1,250fps ammo?? Answer, give him the 1 finger salute and find a bird you can kill and put in the bag.

Open chokes, heavy payload, large shot, and target velocity ammo. If you don't practice with thunderstick ammo at the skeet field, why take it to the field....the leads change.

Joined: 19 Dec 2007 Posts: 109 Location: S.W.PENNSYLVANIA

I own a Emilio Rizzini 12ga O/U 2 3/4" 28" barrel. Factory fixed chokes 1/4 Imp Cyl bottom barrel 3/4 Imp Mod top barrel. I brought the gun back from Italy in 1989. I to thought the chokes were to open,but I will never have any other chokes in the gun after several years hunting with that gun. I have shot grouse,pheasant,dove,ducks,geese,rabbits & squirrels & would not be worried about using it for wild turkey. Maybe the Europeans favor the open chokes for a good reason it kills the game.

RON

Member Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 1338

Member Joined: 07 Jan 2008 Posts: 348 Location: Missouri

If I had to hunt all upland game birds with one gun and that gun could only have one barrel and one choke - I'd take an Improved Cylinder in any of the big three gauges - 12, 16 or 20.

I know for a fact that I've killed more game with a Cyl or Improved Cyl barrel than any other choke. And that's over a 50 year span.

With all the modern shotshells we have today you can make an improved cylinder pattern just about any way you want it to.

Here's my go to loads for Cyl or Imp Cyl for the following gamebirds.

Quail - 8's or 9's
Ruffed Grouse - 7 1/2's, 8's or 9's - In a repeater I will shoot the 9's first followed by the 8's and 7 1/2's.
Pheasant - 7 1/2 high brass, 6's or 5's.
Doves - depending on the set up 6's to 9's. (the most amazing performance I ever witnessed was a guy shooting an old chopped Rem 870 12 ga with a 22 inch barrel and no choke with field load number 6's. He killed every dove he shot at that day out to 40yds.

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

If I am using Japanese Sweet 16, I usually use the IC or a skeet choke.
I have a couple of fixed choked sxs, both IC/Mod. Using the citori, I will have CYL or Skeet in bottom and IC in the top.
Early season I am usning #7 shot in first barrel and 5 1/2 nickel plated for the second. Both loaded no less than 1300fps.
Key is to pattern your guns with combinations of choke and loads until you find some you like.