16ga.com ~ View topic - Sub-gauge loads

Joined: 28 Mar 2009 Posts: 31 Location: kansas city

Quote "I told him they don't work, they're a waste of time etc; but, to humour him, I got hold of some 16ga Polywads and a rollturnover machine, messed around for a while with various recipes, and came up with a load that throws really nice consistent improved cylinder type patterns out of a full choke.

Needless to say, I ate my words. Tasted a bit like chicken. "

Har har!!! ya done made me laugh!

Honestly though, while my tight 16 SxS is great for doves or pheasant, I really don't get to hunt them a whole lot. I do use it on turkeys and have had great results inside it's functional limits. Like I said, most of my small game is rabbits and squirrels. I just LOVE running a couple good beagles. For me, bunnies and .410's just go together like milk and cookies. Which is odd becaue I grew up a die hard 12 gauge shooter. It wasn't until a friend of mine and I went rabbit hunting and I had my 12 and he had an old Winchester 410 and he just laughed at me that I ever even considered another gauge. Then, later that day I jumped a rabbit and shot pretty quickly and centered it at about 12 yards. It was so broken up inside I almost didn't want to put it in my game bag. He kept telling me I needed to get a 410 for rabbits and squirrel and naturally we started talking about what load to use. I said something about needing to use small shot to get more pellets in a little shell like a 410 and he just laughed again. Said he was using 2.5" number 4 shot. Used to use #2's but they quit making them. He swore it was the best squirrel and rabbit load there was. A couple or three pellets into a bunny and you'd roll it and it wouldnt' be all shot up.

Honestly, I flat didn't believe him but didn't say so at the time as I'd known him long enough to hesitate discrediting anything he told me. 9 times out of 10 (or more) he was proved dead right. I ended up buying an old Stevens single shot that was almost like new a year later. First time out I shot at 4 rabbits and killed all 4. I couldn't believe it! I'd always thought of a 410 as a kids gun or at least a starter gun. In the following couple years, I couldn't say how may rabbits I killed with that gun with 2.5" 4 shot loads but I don't think I missed more than two total.

Anyway, this was supposed to be about 16 gauges and the question of sub gauge loads. Based on my own personal experience (with rabbits, not birds) fewer bb's isn't a bad thing. For hunting what I hunt which is squirrel and rabbit mostly, I'd be all over a lighter lead load with fairly large pellets that would shoot a good pattern out of my 16 ga. A good pointing 16 SxS with a light load of shot shooting a good flat pattern at good velocity that doesn't destroy what I'm shooting at? Sure , sign me up.

As a side note, it's already been mentioned about ethically wanting to use more pellets for a cleaner kill. I'm all for that up to the point that I start ruining meat. My own personal ethics are to eat what I kill and destroying what I shoot with heavy loads is to me, more unethical than using a light load, taking shots I know I can make and having full use of the animal I kill. Squirrels take more killing than rabbits but in my experience, niether squirrel nor rabbit can take more than 2 or 3 good size pellets clear through anyplace without either dying outright or giving time for a follow up shot. I don't believe in long shots and anything past about 30 yards wouldn't have to worry about me shooting even with my 16 or 12 gauge. 410 range is even less. Though I will admit shooting a squirrel with my 410 at a good 40 yards just to see if I could do it. I killed him but needed a follow up shot. I learned what I wanted to know and revised my personal range thereafter.

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

I hunt rabbits at some point near the end of the season with a friend who usually brings along his .410 pump gun. He uses 6's or 7.5's and shot one so close that all remaining was a rag skin. I saw the steep angle he was aiming when he fired and heard him say "uhoh" right after the shot. Quick shot, but then he also points his Skeet gun right at the window on High 2 and Low 6.

I carry a M97 16ga with straight Cylinder choke and shoot 1oz or sometimes 1 1/8oz of 5's although I've also used smaller shot sizes. 1oz of 6's is fine and so far no rabbits have been shredded. Those that have been somewhat close must have been hit off-center to the core of the pattern or I might have had too many shot in a few. I could see reducing to 7/8oz or even 3/4oz of 5's to better eliminate the chances of shredding a bunny and think I'll one day do just that. Until then, so far so good.

kgb

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Personally, I wouldn't shoot at a bird or a bunny at more than 15 yards with a 410. When I've done so in the past, I've hit them but not killed them. Bad.

Quite possibly that's more to do with my gun, or me, than the results the 410 cartridge is capable of. I can break clay targets at 30 yards with the 410, but that's another matter entirely.

On the other hand, I can, and do, shoot rabbits at 15 yards or less with an open-choke 12 and ounce-and-an-eighth, and the meat damage is nothing to worry about.

I guess it all comes down to the man on the wooden end of the gun. If you can kill rabbits cleanly with a 410, you have my respect. I can't, so I tray and make it easier for myself.

By coincidence, I spent a couple of hours making up some basic reloading tools for 410 this afternoon (sizing ring, decapper, turnover head). Hitherto, I've only used UK-loaded factory ammo. Maybe a little work on loads will make a difference.

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 184 Location: Dover-Foxcroft, ME

I started using the 3" .410 on grouse and WC a few years back. I've also used it on preserve phez. I limit shots to 25 yds, will occasionally take a WC out to 30.

I will use no load I have not patterned. Some constriction is necessary - if there is a more useless thing than a cyl .410 I've not seen it. Winchester 42s choked skeet or mod (.006-.008 range) are perfect for my use. Full choke is interesting: I've gotten 40 yd patterns with nice 20" diam no-fly zones using Rem 3" in #6. Problem is I'm not about to use the .410 at 40 yds.

I've patterned Rem and WW factory loads in #7.5 and #6. The Remingtons pattern tighter. They are also much, much faster. They typically give 1250 fps in my guns (1270 fps for Pumpgun). The WW 11/16 and 3/4 oz loads run about at spec - 1120 fps or so. I slightly prefer the WWs for Oct WC - recoil is noticeably less, too. Embarassed

The Rem 3" gets the nod for phez.

Sam

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

Inspired by what I've read on this forum about the potential of the .410, I used mine to shoot a rabbit today, at 20 yards. Took both barrels to kill it.

I'd just patterned my new homeload on the plate at 15 yards - very nice pattern, #7 shot, about 18" spread with even distribution & no gaps; the sound of the shot must've disturbed the bunny, which started to shuffle along the line of the fence.

Is myxomatosis endemic in the US? In case you don't know about it, it's a disease, confined as far as I know only to rabbits, that makes them deaf and blind. It also swells up and distorts the head into a shapeless lump; not pleasant. It was deliberately introduced into the UK, I believe just after WW2, to reduce the rabbit population. It crops up whenever the number of rabbits in a given area exceeds a certain level.

This rabbit had the mixie real bad, which is why it just stood there while I reloaded after my patterning shot and shot it. The first shot made it quiver, but didn't kill it. Thankfully, number two finished it off.

Incidentally, the load was no squib. Although it was a published load from a respectable source, it was way overpowered; heavy recoil, flattened primers and now, after 3 shots, my previously tight 410 is about .003" off the face.

Gentlemen, I hear what you say about the merits of the 410. Mine, however, will henceforth be used for clay pigeons and rats (the latter will keep it busy enough; I keep poultry...) For rabbits, I'll go back to the 16, with a full ounce.

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 425 Location: Maine

I've poleaxed preserve phez @25 yards with the aforementioned Rem. #6 load, out of a mod. choke. 42. Agree that patterning is essential with load selection. Have seen 35-40 patterns that look good, but don't trust my skill level to place said kill zone on a live bird at that distance. Mabye if I was George Digweed...

Joined: 28 Mar 2009 Posts: 31 Location: kansas city

Lemming,

Sorry to hear you have such a disease common in your area. Is it contagious to humans in any way?

As for not getting a kill at 20 yards with a 410, I have a hard time with that after all the bunnies I've killed with mine. I have 3 different Stevens single shot 410's but mainly use just one (the one with the longest stock). All are full choke but not all three pattern the same even with the same ammo. I recently bought a Tri Star Brittany SxS 410 with screw in chokes and have not hunted with it yet. I did take it to the range and shot some clay birds with it and honestly, wasn't impressed. I do better with my Stevens. Have not patterned it yet but will be doing that soon.

I think the crux of this whole subject about sub gauge loads hinges on how a given load patterns in a given gun. Some guns just thow a better pattern.

As for lethality, I think much of that hinges on shot size. I know it's totally backwards from the normal thinking to go with larger size shot in a 410 but my own experience has shown a load of 4's to be VERY effective. Most rabbits I kill have 2 to 6 pellet holes in them. Sounds like it's not enough but when they go all the way through, it does the job quite well. Like I said originally, I very seldom miss a rabbit with my 410. Sometimes I won't get a shot off because of not getting the hammer back and aimed in time but when I do shoot, it's pretty well a done deal. I also take just a split second longer lining up the shot compared to when I used to shoot my 12 gauge just because I know I have to make a good hit with the smaller gun and 95% of the time I do.

But again, we're supposed to be talking about light shot charges in 16 ga. guns...

I'm certainly no shotgun balistics expert but all I've heard and read leads me to believe that a square load or even shorter stack gives a better pattern that is flatter and more even than one that is a tall stack like a 410 or for that matter a 3.5" 12 gauge shell.

With my success with the 410, in my mind, a light load in the 16 would be nothing but better.

Have any of you had any experience with such a load? How does it pattern?

I tend to believe personal experince most, reliable printed material second and internet "my buddy did ___________" last. I'd be curious to hear good first hand info on these type loads especially as pertains to results in the field instead of on a target range.

Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 64 Location: UK

[quote="dave bulla"]

Sorry to hear you have such a disease common in your area. Is it contagious to humans in any way? [end quote]

Thankfully, it only affects rabbits. It doesn't even spoil the meat, though the effect is so hideous that you'd have to be starving before you ate one.

[quote]
As for lethality, I think much of that hinges on shot size. I know it's totally backwards from the normal thinking to go with larger size shot in a 410 but my own experience has shown a load of 4's to be VERY effective. Most rabbits I kill have 2 to 6 pellet holes in them. Sounds like it's not enough but when they go all the way through, it does the job quite well.

quote]

Maybe that's it. Smaller, lighter shot loses killing power quicker than bigger, heavier shot. I know I've hit the various rabbits, pigeons, pheasants &c I've shot and failed to kill with my 410 over the years, using #6 and #7, because I've seen them flinch. Of course, that only makes it worse. I'm prepared to accept that #4 retains more energy. 2 pellets each delivering 1 ft/lb is all it takes to kill a bunny.

(Query, though; the same #7s kill cleanly at 40 yards when shot from a 16, 20 or 12, and they leave the barrel at roughly the same MV. Does shot from a 410 lose energy quicker than from a larger bore? Can't think why it should, unless friction of pellets against barrel wall, exacerbated by the very long shot column packed into a tight tube, has a significant effect)

But I'd need to be very satisfied indeed with my patterns if I was using so few pellets. Half ounce of #4 is 85 pellets. Spread out over an 18" circle, you could easily have big gaps unless your pattern is exceptionally even. I guess that's the case with your Stevens.