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<  16ga. Guns  ~  The new 16 ga. model 37 Ithaca
Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

The new 16 gauge barrels are heavier than the old ones-steel shot ready and Briley choke tubes already installed. You can negate a bit of that by ordering one without the rib. But, the steel shot ready and choke tube weight penalty has affected just about every gun made. The Ohio Ithaca stock profiles, especially the front wood, on the new 37s are much nicer than what comes on the BPS. So is the finish. You can contact Ithaca directly, and specify that you want one built as light as possible, and they will select a less dense piece of wood for you-try that with a Browning. Why anyone would consider the 16 gauge BPS, when we have the Ohio Ithaca 37 16 gauge available, built as you request, I don't know.
I can't for the life of me understand all the speculation that goes on about these, when, a simple read of the website, or, a phone call, coupled with some common sense, will answer most of the speculation.
Oh, wait-I guess I just answered my own question. Sorry.

Best,
Ted

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spj
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 49
Location: eastern us

Ted Schefelbein wrote:
The new 16 gauge barrels are heavier than the old ones-steel shot ready and Briley choke tubes already installed. You can negate a bit of that by ordering one without the rib. But, the steel shot ready and choke tube weight penalty has affected just about every gun made. The Ohio Ithaca stock profiles, especially the front wood, on the new 37s are much nicer than what comes on the BPS. So is the finish. You can contact Ithaca directly, and specify that you want one built as light as possible, and they will select a less dense piece of wood for you-try that with a Browning. Why anyone would consider the 16 gauge BPS, when we have the Ohio Ithaca 37 16 gauge available,


Yes the Ithaca is nicer but new steel shot compatible 16ga BPS is $500 item. The Ohio
Ithaca is expensive gun. What I don't understand is why does old field grade 37 in very good condition sell for $300 to $350 just like say 25 years ago?

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Did you read the part about plastic white line spacers, and impressed checkering?
Hey, you get what you pay for. It isn't like they are giving Benellis, Brownings and Remingtons away, either.
From what I can see, from here, there weren't a lot of people who bought Ithaca 37s and put them in a closet, in the box, with the hangtags, and saved them so they could appear on Riffle's or Crosnoe's sites, for stupid money, 50 years later.
Used, is good, if you are cheap. Like me.


Best,
Ted

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Gil S
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:45 am  Reply with quote
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If your goal is to save money, I agree there are cheaper guns than the new Ithaca. Same for the BPS. Not everyone is willing to shell out what the new Ithacas cost and I appreciate that position. It's the same reason some folks drive Fords or Chevys and not Mercedes-Benz. I don't recall used M37s selling for $300-350 25 years ago. I would happily pay that price today. On page 80 of Walter Snyder's Ithaca Feahterlight Repeaters, the list price in 1961 for a plain bbl. 37 was $94.95. I see nothing unusual about paying more in 2011 for a used gun than what one sold for NIB decades ago.

If weight is the paramount factor in consideration, then consider the Rem. 870 12 gauge Super Express Magnum Waterfowl/Turkey gun. I have one of those and it weighs 7 lbs., 1 ozs. With that I have a gun that can be downloaded to 7/8 ozs. in readily available hulls, or shoot 3.5" turkey or waterfowl loads. On the other hand, with its polymer and stamped metal parts, it has the aesthetics of a 4-way lug wrench, but it's cheaper than a BPS.

Ted, Good point about the steel shot compatibilty and weight. In my new 20 gauge M37 Turkeyslayer, the heavier barrel was necessary because of 3" shell usage in turkey loads. Same with the DeerSlayer.
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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Location: Mpls, MN.

My older Ithaca 37 were all 2 3/4" guns. My mid 1990s vintage King's Ferry 12 is a 3" gun. It is heavier than the older guns, and that is how it should be.

Best,
Ted

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Ole Cowboy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:59 pm  Reply with quote
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My King Ferry 16 Gauge Classic has the scaled 16 ga. receiver but it has the length of the 3" receivers used in the 12 & 20 gauge guns. Thus, somewhat heavier, but the 24" fixed Skeet choked barrel keeps the weigh down.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:05 pm  Reply with quote
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I asked the question about the weight of the new 16 ga Model 37 in hopes of getting some straight answers. I got the info I was after. Unfortunately, it was not what I'd hoped to hear. 7.4 pounds is just too much weight for a decent 16 ga pump gun IMO. I think the new manufacturers need to rethink their approach if they want to compete with the older models or the BPS.

The excuse that the new Model 37s must weigh 7.4 pounds to be steel shot compatable and have a ribbed barrel does not fly IMO. My 16 ga BPS Upland 26" barrleled model is steel shot compatable, has a rib and choke tubes, and weighs under 7 pounds. I'm not posting this to start another pissing contest over which gun is better. It's simply a fact. To my mind, if one gun company can do it with their standard model w/o us having to special order anything, then so can another. In fact, the folks in Ohio must if they wish to compete. Otherwise, they are already behind where it counts for most of us 16 ga folks IMO.

What is more, the walnut on my BPS may not be high grade exhibition walnut, but it is not plain or ugly either. It has some pleasant grain to it which did not cost me one thin dime extra. The BPS stock also fits me like it was custom made for me. TI've heard the same thing from quite a few others. That is another important point. After all, to me, the best use for a 16 ga repeater is for hunting birds pure and simple. The gun must handlle well and shoot accurately out of the box. I don't need another overpriced exhibition grade safe queen. That is not what pump guns are all about IMO.

I think the folks in Ohio need to listen to us 16 ga folks and then try harder to meet the basic criteria first. Fancy should come second for those who want it and are willing to pay for it, but give us a basic model that handles, carries, and shoots like a 16 ga pump should. Otherwise, the folks in Ohio won't be getting any of my money. I'm sure I'm not alone here either.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ole Cowboy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:12 pm  Reply with quote
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The BPS is a piece of junk compared to the M37. Rolling Eyes
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:07 pm  Reply with quote
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[quote="Gil S"]
16gaugeguy wrote:
So I guess we have seen the closing of an era for U.S. made 16 ga pumps here.


On another forum, this issue has come up. The 16 and 20 are the same frame size externally... quote]

Yes, I'm aware of this Gil. I was able to measure and compare my 1969 16 ga frame with a fellow club member's 20 ga DLXR model of the same era. No difference externally. Both guns weighed close too, though the 20 was a tad lighter.

Up until this past winter, I also owned a similar 16 ga King's Ferry model with a 26" VR barrel w/ Tru-choke tubes. It's receiver measured the same as well. However, the 26" barrel is considerably heavier than the 1969, 28" VR barrel. It has almost no taper from the chamber to the muzzle and has a bore diameter of .657" The 1969 VR barrel has a bore diameter of .662" which is about standard for a 16 ga. It's more trimly tapered and considerably lighter as well. I also bought one of the last of the left over King's Ferry 16 ga 24" barrels w/ choke tubes from Sandusky several years ago. It too has a .657" bore diameter and almost no taper. The walls on the two newer barrels are pretty thick as well. In fact, the older 28" barrel and the 24" barrel weight just aboutthe same. If the newest 16 ga barrels from Sandusky are similar, than I think this is were all the added weight is.

It does not have to be so. Other companies have successfully addressed the same problem by swamping their barrels and by overboring them. The slightly bigger bores offer better ballistic performance and save weight. That's a win, win. Swamping the barrels allows enough wall thickness at the muzzle for the choke tubes while trimming weight from the center section. It also puts the balance out a bit more forward, so the guns swing and track a tad better with shorter, lighter barrels. It's another win, win.

I think the folks at Sandusky would do well to look at the competition's barrels with an eye to go back to school on their own. However, that's not up to us.
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spj
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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Look for early Mossberg with walnut stock in 16ga. It has Remington 31 "ball bearing" action metal tang safety and lovely orangey/red T vented rubber pad to boot.

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Gil S
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:16 am  Reply with quote
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I spoke with Zak at Ithaca this a.m. and asked him whether or not the frames were interchangeable or standard. His answer: "No". They are gauge specific. They are same width, but there are length and height differences. When asked about weight differences between old and new, he said the old guns used more cast steel than the newer guns and cast steel weighs less. Also the alloy used in the barrels is heavier than the old C12 which was used in earlier barrels. The new barrels are made from a stronger, denser alloy, 4140. The barrel walls are thicker as well for modern ammunition. On my turkeyslayer 20, the barrel is thicker to accomodate the turkey chokes. Turkey chokes are thicker walled than the Briley chokes that come with my M37 28 gauge. As for the myth about the frames being the same, he pointed out one obvious difference was that the subgauges (at least 28, 20 and not sure if he said 16) had a rounded frame at the bottom of the receiver near the magazine tube. The 12 gauge has a squared bottom. This is obvious from viewing the website. Gil
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:21 am  Reply with quote
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My 1969 16 ga Model 37 barrel and frame bear the "Hammer forged" strike mark. These New York frames were forged and machined, not cast. I believe the pre-WWII frames were also forged, then machined to clean them up.

I'm not certain, but I believe these barrels are also made from 4140 moly steel. These "Hammer Forged" barrels were rotary hammer forged in similar fashion to many of German and Scandinavian made barrels of today. The process can yield barrels of superior strength for weight plus an excellent bore surface and extremely uniform and precise bore and choke dimensions.

I believe the King's Ferry barrels were contracted out and purchased from one or more of the large US based barrel manufacturers who supply shotgun and rifle barrels to the US gun making industry. The King's Ferry barrels appear to be typical of the inexpensive barrels found on Mossbergs and other lower cost repeating shotguns. The barrels appear to be deep bored and reamed from a free machining grade of steel which is probably not as resilient as 4140 moly steel. The bore and choke dimensions are not nearly as precise nor is the interior finish as good. These barrels are obviously manufactured to save money at the cost of weight vs strength, balance, and the resulting gun handling and shooting characteristics.

I've not seen any of the barrels on the new 16 ga model 37s, so I can't say anything about them. However, if the new barrels are like those found on the King's Ferry models, then i think the folks at Sandusky need to rethink the matter. I don't like the idea that the guns' weight has been increased once again and the handling characteristics compromised to their present extent in order to guarantee their strength and ability to handle steel shot. I think the guns deserve better designed and crafted barrels in order to preserve the handling and shooting characteristics which made therm great in the first place.

I'm grateful the folks at Sandusky are attempting to preserve and manufacture the Model 37--especially the 16 ga model. However, I know the others have found workable solutions to similar problems with other guns. I think the folks at Sandusky need to do so as well.
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Gil S
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:55 pm  Reply with quote
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Grousen wrote:
I have bought the Ohio made M37 in all four gauges, 12, 16, 20 & 28. The receiver size was specific (standard) for each gauge, and each gauge frame size was different from the other gauges.


How do you like your new guns? Any problems with quality? I am pleased with my Ohio guns. Gil
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waggo71
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:32 pm  Reply with quote
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I have to say, I never saw the weight as a consideration. At all. I hunted most of my teens and twenties with a 12 gauge pump that weighed about as much as a '68 Buick Electra. When the rabbit jumped or the Pheasant rose I always mustered up the strength to get a shot or two off. On the other hand, I had a plain barrel '37 in 12G from the 1950's that weighed about 5 1/2 lbs and every time I cracked that thing off I wished it was heavier! Really, the difference between 6.8 and 7.2 oz just isn't enough for me to worry about. I pick the gun I want to shoot on a given day based on quality, reliability, familiarity, sentimentality, mood...but not weight.
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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Tell you what, 16GG-take the junk piece of potmetal trigger assembly out of your BPS and weigh it-then, take the nicely fitted and finished steel unit out of your 37, any era will do, as they are all steel. Subtract the weight of the pot metal BPS unit from the steel 37 unit, and I suspect you will find your 3-5 ozs.
You will likely find little slivers of diecast in your hand when you remove the pot metal BPS unit, and a few more when you replace it.
This is normal. Expected, actually. Unless you use a hammer, you won't observe this on the model 37. A hint, however-you have to remove the stock from the 37 to do this.
While the issue number escapes me at the moment, I read about the Roto-forging process, when it was new at Ithaca, in a steel trade engineering rag from that era-the point was made that Ithaca was able to use a lower grade of barrel steel than they had previously, due to the new process. The article was aimed at cost reduction, most favorite subject of engineers, not gun manufacturing, per say. I'll see if I can find it.
Trust me, it was not 4140 they were using. They may be using it now, but, it wasn't then. Ithaca spent the 1960s teetering on bankruptcy, and was figuring out, best it could, how to cut costs, not increase them. 4140 eats tooling, and that cost is factored into the cost of a new gun, and everybody likes to complain about what the new Ohio 37s cost.
Guess what? There is a reason. Ithaca in Ohio isn't getting rich off the few 16s they sell. This is a sub niche of what is becoming a niche market.
Glad you are happy with the BPS. Others here, well, we aren't so much. If I was in the market (I'm not, I inherited a bunch of shotguns and couldn't get another in the safe) I'd pay double for an Ithaca over the BPS. No kidding. The Sandusky guns have a solid feel that the Browning won't duplicate, can't duplicate, because the materials and processes it is built with can't compare to the cost and quality of the Ithaca's. That is more important than a few ozs.
You get what you pay for. Now, scamper off and report back to the class what you found in the trigger group weigh in. Be careful you don't damage the BPS when you take it down. It happens.


Best,
Ted

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