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popplecop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Must be my age as I'm perfectly satisfied with my 52 37R in 12 ga. and my 57 37 16 ga. Great old guns and still kill ducks.

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Gil S
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:47 pm  Reply with quote
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A word about the barrels: Note the stanchions supporting the rib on the Ohio M37s. They are machined from the oversized barrel stock and intregal to the barrel, not soldered to the top of the barrel as is traditionally done. This does not save money. I am not aware of any gunmaker that does this. Maybe there is, but not in any gun sold at WalMart. It definitely is a niche market for the new Ithaca. Not everyone wants one or can justify the expense. I've owned and shot Ithacas since the early 1970s and hope to continue to so for a long time. I like the way they look and the way they shoot. Will my Ohio M37s perform better than my Mossy 500 and 835 or my Remington 870? Maybe not. But the Ithacas are built better.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:31 pm  Reply with quote
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Gil, I'm not claiming the 37s aren't built better--just heavier. I wish it weren't so. Having owned and enjoyed my own Model 37 DLXR for a while now, I'd be a fool to claim they aren't one helluva gun.

BTW, I've been re-reading some of the old info about how the original receivers were manufactured. Some folks claim they were all machined out of a solid billet of steel. Others claim they were forged from a billet and machined similar to the original Winchester Model 12 receivers. None of these earlier folks claims any of the Model 37 receivers were ever cast.

I examined my Hammer Forged era gun again. Sure doesn't look like a cast steel receiver to me. Looks to be machined both inside and out. There is none of the tell tail evidence casting leaves like a rough, sandy looking surfaces in the corners or other nooks and crannys where a cutting tool can't reach or isn't needed

Sorry to get your tail all knotted up Ted. I've seen some very positive posts about the BPS right here. Each to his own. I do like mine. It handles and shoots very well for me. Isn't that what shooting is all about?

As far as pot metal trigger groups go? Well perhaps they aren't as refined or as strong as machined steel. However, aren't you really referring to cast aluminum? That is what a number of companies use for their trigger group blocks including Remington, Beretta, Browning, Winchester (used to), and many others. I've yet to hear or see anyone claim the 1100 or 390 auto trigger groups don't hold up. I'm also certain some ham handed moron with a big hammer and a small brain could smash one to junk while trying to punch it out of the receiver on any of them. However, rumor has it that gunsmithing is a skillled craft. The "bigger hammer' technique has never been recommended by anyone I'd call a gunsmith. Don't know about your neck of the woods though. Best, 16GG. Very Happy
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Mpls, MN.

The only person talking about cast receivers here, is you.
Where did that come from? Are you confused about something?

As to your thoughts about aluminum trigger groups, look at this:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=29001/Product/TR

Beretta aluminum trigger group, right? If you do a google search for the other guns you mentioned, you will find replacement trigger groups from a variety of companies. Now, I noted your earlier confusion, and hope you can follow this line of thinking. Google "replacement trigger group for Ithaca model 37."

Do you know what you will find? Zip, nada, nothing. The factory might sell you an OEM unit, but, it would likely be because you worked on it, not from any defect in the original. Why do you suppose you can buy replacement trigger groups for all those guns you mentioned? Hmm, make one wonder, doesn't it?

There is a reason, grasshopper, there is a reason. With much more study, I'm sure you will discover why.

But, I'm sure it is comforting to know that somebody will sell you a replacement potmetal (hint-you won't be getting T6 aluminum forgings on any trigger groups you buy for those guns that have diecast as OEM) for your gun.

I'm much happier knowing the Ithaca 37 will never need one.

Best, Ted

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:13 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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I found this guys comparison to be quite honest:

http://randywakeman.com/Ithaca37_Browning_%20BPS_Compare.htm

Brutally honest, actually. Since, 16GG, by your own admission, you have never even seen a current spec Ithaca 16 gauge to draw conclusions about weight from, maybe you should hold off on concluding they are too heavy, just yet.

The motorcycle racers have a term they use to refer to folk who spend much time worrying about a few ozs here and there-"weight weinies". Instead of fretting that few ozs difference between a quality product, like the model 37, and an inferior knock-off, like the BPS, perhaps you could lose five pounds, or so, right behind the navel, and call it good?

Only trying to help. Might be brutally honest, however....


Best,
Ted

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:07 am  Reply with quote
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From Gil: "I spoke with Zak at Ithaca this a.m. and asked him whether or not the frames were interchangeable or standard. His answer: "No". They are gauge specific. They are same width, but there are length and height differences. When asked about weight differences between old and new, he said the old guns used more cast steel than the newer guns and cast steel weighs less.

As I previously posted, I have examined my own gun and can't see any evidence this is true. So I question this information.

Ted, a few years back, you seemed to have been wailing over the increased weight issue yourself. We were discussing the strength vs weight issues between the Model 37 Ultra Feather Weight with an alloy receiver and the all steel version. You claimed you much prefered the alloy receiver model because it is somewhere around a half pound lighter than the all steel model and much easier to carry. I posted that I prefer the all steel receiver model, because the bolt locks up in the receiver roof and not into a barrel extention like most post WWII modern pump gun designs (like the Mossberg 500, the Winchester 1200, and the Remington 870). I stated that the 6.9 pounds I was carrying was not too difficult to handle and was well under what most 12 ga pumps weigh. You vehemently pooh poohed the idea that the added strength of the steel receiver was as important to you as the weight savings.

So now that the newest 16 ga versions weigh 7.4 pounds, heavier seems to be fine with you? What has changed your mind?
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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My 1957 standard sans rib weighs just a touch over 6lbs. The Ultra I sold weighed just a bit more. Thats right, more. It had denser wood, choke tubes and a rib. What actually changed my mind was the guy who offered up $800 for a used 16 gauge Ultra, that Zander's sold me for $349. The 1957 gun was $225, shipped.

Same great performance. Same light weight. No aftermarket trigger groups for either.

How can you quote exact weight for a gun you've never seen? You understand that two different pieces of wood can have a difference of damn near half a pound on a stock the size of a 37s. Maybe the Sandusky people put the heaviest weight they figured they would ever see in production out there, just in case.

Best,
Ted

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Gil S
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:39 am  Reply with quote
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One of the other differences mentioned comparing old versus new Ithacas was not just die cast parts, but specific alloy differences. According to Zak, the newer alloys used are denser. In comparing the density of alloys, this can make a difference of a few ounces if five pounds of old steel's volume is replaced with a denser steel alloy. After reading the Wakeman comparision of the BPS versus Ithaca manufacturing process, it only reinforces my opinion as to the desirability and quality of the new Ithacas without regard to weight differences between the two guns. It's all a matter of personal choice; ultimately, the effectiveness of each gun in making a good shot mostly depends on the jerk behind the trigger. Wink Gil
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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There really isn't a shortage of used BPS guns in my neighborhood. I concluded, a long time ago, after one of the local 'smiths put up a sign that he wasn't interested in working on them, that they are inferior. Nothing has caused me to change that thinking in the 25 years or so that have gone by. The internet is alive with amatuers trying to get the POS trigger group back into the BPS after they have removed it, usually trying to diagonse why the dumb thing won't cycle. It's crap, really. I'd take a Mossberg 500, anyday, over the BPS. It is a much more trouble free design.
There is always armchair speculation that the Ithacas COULD develop headspace issues with the interupted thread design. This is so much braying at the moon over nothing, it is so rare as to be a non factor in the design, even with the Ultras. The extra barrel I found for my model 17 was produced in the early 1920s, and slipped right into the gun, produced in 1933, locked up tight, and headspaced absolutely correctly. Both my gun and the extra barrel have had lots and lots of use, before and after what I have put into them.
Sweating a few ozs at this point in life simply isn't worth it. But, shooting an Ithaca over some eastern import really is.


Best,
Ted

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ermadear55
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:21 am  Reply with quote
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Last winter I got super excited when a local radio DJ anounced that the Sandusky boys were ready to market their new M37 16 ga (finally). So after work I went straight here to get the expert analysis of the situation. Well, I got that and lots more as usual so I went into a mild state of depression and a flashback to the day I sold my 1953 Model 37 16ga that I had bought used for $45 from my Dad's boss. Genius that I am I sold it for $100 after being hammered on for 3 seasons by all my friends who "knew" that only an idiot would hunt with a 16 gauge when the 12s were taking over the entire hobby. It was the nicest shooting gun I have ever owned but it had not had real good care, was plenty dinged up and even had some rust issues so doubling my money seemed like a great idea. I was wrong! Bought and sold many different 12 gauges over the years but never had a gun that I enjoyed upland field hunting with like that one. Growing older I started thinking that a lighter gun would be better so I bought a Wingmaster LT 20 and still have it and like it. It was/is not like the Ithaca though. Shopping for years I always thought the prices for used M37 16gas were high for the condition they were in. So, I was delighted when the BPS 16 ga was introduced. My son and I each bought one and I swapped the forearms so they both looked better. There is a difference in wood and after the swap both guns weigh exactly 7 lbs. Shot it for 3 seasons, did pretty good at trap with it and like it a lot. Continuing my research mostly here I decided against buying the new Ithaca and set my mind to finding a really nice used one. At the time a good friend of mine here ceased to own a nice used Kings Ferry gun (actually it arrived as NIB nearly as pretty as my wife) I got one at a great price. Have had a very challenging year here with both wife and son having physical health issues that became minor challenges after the Aug 1st tornadoes in the area took the roof off our home and dumped 5.5" of rain into it. Although pretty busy I have got a lot of shooting done, shot my first ever 50 straight with the 37 (I am not that good so I do think the gun has a bit to do with this success and the jerk behind the trigger has always been an issue for me) and got 17 birds in 18 shots at our annual Habitat for Humanity preserve hunt. I once read someone here refer to the BPS 16s as "utility guns" in a very positive way. I agree with him. I think they are great guns for the little my opinion may matter here. Remember, I am a shucker junkie and I collect old Mossbergs and J C Higgins doubles. One of the "elite" here told me I need to get a life. I like the one I have just fine thank you. Since I found this wonderful Ithaca my BPS doesn't get out like she used to though. I am still very enthused about the New Ithacas coming out of Sandusky and am saving for a 28. The quality materials and contruction techiques, nice folks with courteous info in their customer service dept and American craftsman building these guns all make them worth the price to me.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:29 pm  Reply with quote
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ermadear55, I'm fairly certain the guy who sold you that King's Ferry gun would be delighted to know you love it so much. They are just about every bit as good as the older ones from what I've actually seen. They simply need time and use to slick up as nice as the older ones. I'm sure your's will get there toot sweet.

I'm also sorry to hear you've had such a rough summer w/ everything else. Seems good luck and bad tend to come in threes. It would seem you've had your three bad ones and one good one (the gun). The 50 straight ain't luck. It's skill. So let's hope you get at least two more good stokes of luck like an outstanding bird season, and whatever other good fortune that comes your way. 16GG.
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ermadear55
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:06 am  Reply with quote
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She is a real beauty and actually quite slick for a brand new gun. The old one I had did have an amazingly slick action. It had seen much use and little care when I bought it but I always loved shuckin' that thing. I like pretty guns so this one is a keeper.

Thanks for your kind words on our challening year. I am 58 and 57 of them were really good, including the 3.5 that I did not get my butt removed from mother earth in Iraq. I have always said I am a lucky guy and we are crawling out of this little dimple in our lives. We will have a beautiful home when we get her done and it will have a great man/gun cave now. Bird hunting has been super this year, especially the ducks! America's worst leadership crisis is nearing it's end and I have a great family and friends.
The furture is bright! Thank you my friend, ed55 Very Happy
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popplecop
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:42 am  Reply with quote
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Ted, I don't understand why the gunsmith wouldn't work on the BPS. There are a lot of them in my area and we see them in the shop for cleaning. The shell latches are not the easiest to get back to allow for the trigger assembly to be replaced in the action. Mossberg 500s still have the best system for that of any pump shotgun I've worked on.

I know of 2 BPS a 12 and a 16 that see intensive use in the marshes of SW Louisiana and never a problem in the last 6 years. For me I'm old fashion and will stick with my 37s from the 50s. Also see more 37s in the shop for shell stop adjustments or replacement as they sometimes have 2 come out of the mag. tube. Have never seen that with the BPS.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:01 pm  Reply with quote
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I never meant for this thread to become a contest between these two fine guns. I own one of each. Both are excellent, servicable, rugged guns in my experience.

The 37 is now going on on eight decades. The BPS is going on four (yup). That's enough time for any gun design to prove itself. Both have done so for countless owners. Both are still in demand or they would not be in production.

I've no argument with anyone who owns one of either model. I simply would like to see anyone manufacturing the 16 ga models to hold the weight down to 7 pounds or under. Doing so is one of the things that makes owning and shooting a good 16 ga gun such a joy IMO. Otherwise, we might as well just buy a 12 and get the benefit of added power for the extra weight. Just my opinion. Peace out.
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gunflint charlie
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:24 pm  Reply with quote
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In past discussions of the approximately 7 lb. BPS, Ted asserted that they were much too heavy for a 16 -- said something about "carries like a 12, hits like a 20" as criticism of my 6lb. 14 oz. BPS 16 ga. Upland. He even spoke poetically, comparing the 7 lb.-ish 16 to fat women ..."Someone has to love them, just not me."

Somehow when it comes to the new 37s, Ted's done a 180 degree turn on appropriate weight for a 16 ga. Hmmm. I guess this gives hope to fat women in Ted's neighborhood.

Jay
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