16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

The $1000 grade Ithaca 37s (when they turn up) sell for more than any model 12 Winchester. Sorry.

Simple fact remains, if a guy shoots a 37 better than a model 12 (and, a lot of guys who own guns to shoot find that to be exactly the case) than what it costs now, and what some relative sells either for when the owner checks out is just irrelevent. Shoot what works best.

Have a copy of each, no company anywhere in the world will be gearing up to produce model 12 Winchesters this week. Know why? Because it is a costly and inferior design. Sorry again. Let the market prove me wrong, however.

None of us need worry about that happening any time soon though, do we?

As we type, the 37 is once again on the horizon. The market speaks, it would seem.

Remember, there are people who collect model 11 and model 40 Winchesters, and the only reason is because they say Winchester-the guns were awful and were recalled. Junk is collectable when it says Winchester on it.

Best,
Ted

Guest

No worries, Hunshatt. And I think you ought to ease up on those unfortunate souls. Obviously, they're tormented enough. Look at their choice in guns! Wink

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Huns ease up? Ain't likely. Razz

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

We can play "last word" on this subject---which you and I have done several times, Ted---and it isn't going to change anyone's mind. But I've never seen the words Model 12 and "inferior" used in the same sentence by anyone who really knew guns and knew what they were talking about.
The used gun market has spoken, and that's the end of the story as far as i'm concerned.

If model 12 guns were still being produced, in the US they would have to sell for in excess of $1200 new. Resale from new to used would be about 1/2 to a dealer and about 2/3 directly. so it is with the 37. both hold onto thier relative values. Both are desireable. both are very good guns.

Dress them up into engraved collectibles of equal quality and workmanship, and the same thing applies. both would be handsome, both desired. Someone brought in the Dehaan, and wanted to know why the same evaluation does not apply. Its because the Dehaan is not a proven gun with a long domestic track record and an american Heritage that stretches back to our grandfathers and even great grandfathers. Buy a Dehaan andthen try to sell it. You will not realise the same 2/3s return from new to used. No dealer will give you 1/2 what you paid for it. It won't sell as fast as either of the other two either.

I frequent KTP. I will say that the Ithaca 16 ga guns fly out of there. The Winchester model 12 guns tend to sell slower. I'm talking about hunting guns and not collectables. This might be a local thing. But, the guys at Kittery tell me the 37 is the more popular piece for hunting with.

Perhaps you folks missed the smiley face I plastered onto my original post. Lets all just enjoy the give and take in these "hot stove league" exchanges we seem to enjoy. It keeps some of us amused while we wait for bird season to roll back around. Its not meant in any mean spirited way. so don't take it that way. Birdswatter, of course its bullshit as you put it, but its enjoyable bullshit for most of us. Why get offended. If you belonged to a small, local sportsman's club, you'd hear and see the same thing over morning coffee and donuts between lines of trap , or skeet, etc.

What I see here is friendships and comraderie forming. We are becoming a club of our own. I've been exchanging information, opinions, nudges, and shots with you guys for over a year now. I've enjoyed most of it, once I came to realize what has been taking place. Its happening here on the internet instead of at a warmup house or in the loading room of a range. but its the same thing. I hope you al see this too. Its a good thing. Enjoy it.

And your all still chattering about clackity clackity guns and collectiblity.

Let get back to talking about pheasent killin laser beams, cubans, and GOOD single malt, and my inablity to operate TJC's new loader that he just won on ebay, without the infamous 2x4 prod he normally saves for those hard headed german dobermans of his.

Ok Twice we'll even include some good bourbon, woodward reserve(sp??) or knob creek (or was it mash you like?)

Rev's on his way south to save the world, so I'll not desparage he and his kat/dog, other than to tell you about the 16ga inserts for my 20 that he sent, just before he headed south

16 in a 20, that's gotta be a miracle. Maybe the Rev's got the inside track after all.. or you've been into the single malt again there Thuddd. Laughing

TJ, don't let him fall off the stool at the reloading bench, or flick his ashes into the powder again. Rolling Eyes

The banter back and forth is alot of why I keep comin' back! 16gg, I think you are right on with the comeraderie and zingers...that IS what builds relationships and forms up groups. This is kind of like the after hunt BS session on the back porch of the hunt cabin....and that's HIGH praise for this group that I've only ever seen in one other. I like hearing others opinions, especially the strong ones, for either side of any argument. Passion makes for an enriched life!

I would not dare to comment on the technical superiority of either gun. I own a 20ga #37, very old, very light, very used and works great. If it were a double I'd probably use it more but it is mostly my tired gun. I'm a terrible shucker as a result. I like it, it was cheap, and when I have a long hike to the cover after a week of brush busting it sees the light of day over my forearm.

I would hazard to guess there were just more #37's made which brings the price down, combined with the public preference to the Remington name. If the #37 were marketed under the Browning name there would be a corresponding increase in resale value.

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

You guys have got wolfchief wound up now.
But I agree with him. The 37 is a timex and the 12 is the Rolex. They will both give you the time only one does it with style and grace. I got Mod 12's in all gauges. I've had 37 in 16 and 20. Boys it just not the same. Thats all I got to say about that.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

"The used gun market has spoken"...about an obsolete design, no longer available, with a slowly evaporating stock of parts. And a name. Nothing else, really.

For using, 37s rule. For drooing on, waiting for someone to pay more than you did, get a model 12.

The design is inferior, because you can't produce it and sell it for what it takes to do it. I'd be willing to bet the people who designed it wish they had come up with the Mossberg 500 that day-and that Winchester was still producing it, same as Mossberg does to this day.

I know which company has made more money off it's design-do you, Wolfchief?

The market has spoken, after all.

Best,
Ted

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:25 am; edited 2 times in total*

Amen Brother Citori 16... you are dead on there.

As far as timex to Rolex, Brother old 16...well I think you've gone overboard there a bit. I never owned a Rolex. Never want to either. My Seiko is some 25 years old and is still keeping perfect time. It is just as dependable and far easier for the average guy to afford. My 1969 Ithaca 37 is also still banging and shucking too, every time without fail. Every Timex I ever had lasted about a month or two before something "gave it a licking and it stopped ticking" Laughing

. Now if you compared the 37 to a nice Waltham, I'd buy into your comparison. I still have my Dad's and it still works very well. It too never went for the price of a Rolex. However, its been good enough to last for some 70 years or so.

To me, Winchester model 12 basic hunting guns are simply overpriced, Great pieces of engineering and workmenship, but overpriced by name only. They do not shuck and load with the same fluid ease, slickness, and quickness of the 37, nor are they nearly as compact.

The Model 12 is more convenient to load from the side at a trap range and was the more popular of the two for targets. The 37 is a bit of a pain to single load on a trap or skeet field. It was never designed for one at a time target work. It was designed to be loaded up to capacity for hunting. It is perhaps the easiest pump to load multiple shells into I've ever used. They just slide in like they were greased. Anyone can do it with their eyes closed or focused on something else. The 12 is not difficult to load, but it can't be loaded with quite the same speed and certainty. Also, the model 12 was never as popular on the skeet ranges as the Remington 31, which was a modernization of the 37 (Remington 17..same basic gun) and has the same slick, smooth action type. The 31 handles rapidly deployed multiple targets better as does the 37. The 12 is not quick enough to keep up in average hands.

One other point here. During the Vietnam War, the Naval and special forces that served as interdiction teams much prefered the model 37 above all other types for rapid deployment, egress and cover fire in close quarters... at least the ones I've had the pleasure to meet and talk to. It was more dependable, more compact, easier to keep jungle crap out of, and a bit faster and easier to load, shuck, and fire when things got sticky, which was fairly often on the waterways of the Mecong Delta. Those boys staked their lives on their choice. I'd say that alone is high praise. I'm sure mine will serve me just as well in the New England grouse thickets. They've been doing it in one form or other for some 80 years if you throw in the Reminton model 17 as the same gun...which it is.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Sorry but you are both wrong. To be decent there should be 2 barrels on a gun. Anything less is second best.
I'd prefer to have my 2 barrels SxS like the horizon but can adjust to the stacked version.

You can keep those self shuckers as far as I'm concerned. I'll stick to my "ugly" German dogs and a quality German gun. Razz

OK, I'll occasionally throw in a walk in the field for the American version, tomatoe stake SxS otherwise known as a Sterly.

Bring it on Exclamation

CLACKITY CLACKITY CLACK, don't talk back.

TJC, lets be fair. The only time you take the old tire iron for a walk is when your nephew is along, as you need a young guy to carry that old hulking load of a pig gun.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Yea, and then I take the 12 ga. so I can reach out with that extra full second barrel. Even though I don't need the second barrel too often except for doubles. Razz

What happens if you miss the first two shots? Or a third quail pops into the air immediately after you've nailed one or two. Then you are screwed. I can just keep on shucking and shooting. Hell, I don't even need to break the gun open to reload, just push them into the mag tube while one is ready in the chamber. I can do it while keeping my gun pointed down range and my eyes focused on the cover. Same thing in a duck or goose blind. I never have to take my eyes off the skies, nor break my gun open in the confines of a smal blind or pit. That's why pumps like the 37 were the guns of choice for most waterfowlers among other reasons.

Plus, I've got three barrels for my 37, a 24" (sorry Ted, its still a nice thing to have), a 26" and a 28" one. That's one better than you TJ... so there! Laughing