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Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Can anyone tell me the relationship, similarities, and differences between the Merkel and the Simpson. Am I right in thinking Suhl is the town where these guns were manufactured? Is there any relationship between these guns and the Saur? thanks!

Matt

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Complicated question. Prior to WWII, Merkel/Sauer/Simson were 3 different firms, all making guns in Suhl. In the late 30's, the Nazis took over Simson because it was a Jewish-owned firm, renamed it BSW. After the war, when sporting gun production started up again, Suhl was "behind the Curtain" in East Germany. Merkels, Simsons, and Fortunas (East German Sauers) were all made in the same factory in Suhl. Meanwhile, Sauer had "officially" moved to W. Germany and was making guns there--and eventually, guns marked Sauer came from both Germanys. You can tell them apart either by the proofmarks, or the fact that the W. German Sauers were almost always marked as "Made in W. Germany", while the E. German Sauers still said "Suhl". All decent guns, whether made before or after the war, although most German gun lovers would say the older guns show more craftsmanship. On the other hand, the newer ones all have 2 3/4" chambers and are built to withstand heavier modern loads.

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Thanks Larry. Of the 3 guns which were made in the same factory, were they all made to the same standards, or is a Merkel better than a Simson?

Matt

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

During the East German period, when they were all being made in the same factory, I don't think there was any difference in quality--assuming guns of the same grade. And all 3 (Merkel, Simson, Fortuna/Sauer) were made in a variety of grades. But they were pretty much all the same basic design. Cover up the name, and it's hard to tell which is which.

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

Thanks Larry: I'm looking for a "hell for stout" 16 ga. double. Do these Merkel/Simson guns handle the 1 1/8oz. loads? I know the reputation of the modern Merkels's. The one I'm looking at is an early 50's gun.

Matt

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Matt, if you're talking post-war guns, they should all handle 1 1/8 oz ok. The only problem is, they tend to be on the light side and will likely give you a pretty good jolt with those heavy loads.

I've recently seen an ad for an older Sauer gun with 2.5" chambers. Is it safe to open the chambers in these guns to 2.75"? Thanks GWW

WOW!

8 posts and not one "lazer guided pheasant killing machine" reference - give it time I guess...

Larry - thanks for the info - very informative and helpful to a German gun noob

Sprocket, you Lite beer drinking (not fit for reprint) you said it, so I don't have to.
Biggest difference I see it the cost to get into the game. My Merk was about 3 times the cost of the simson. Same deminsions, close weights. both hit where it points(normally 2 foot behing where the bird was). My sauer is prewar so I can't comment.
BTW sprocket , old boy, the vinilla beer is the bomb(as bebe wouold say)

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Huns,

Two feet behing the bird? Have you been practicing? Very Happy

Nothing like the lazer guided, feather seeking, bird killing, solid as a rock, pheasant dumping machines. Shocked

You can use the simpson next weekend.

Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 2 Location: Sweden

I got a J.P Sauer & Sohn from nov 1958
And I'm told that the guns made before 1959 was made from pre war parts.
I'm also told that that is supposed to be better quality in genareal than later parts.
Anyway, I like this gun although I had to open up the pipes.
Another question is why older (and maby still) german guns had so low stock?

Any used gun dealer/trader/collecter will always tell you the old ones are better. Hogwash!! Today's gun steels and alloys are better, tougher, stronger. The computer guided tooling machinery is better and more accurate. The alloys used in the cutting heads, drills, and reams are better, harder, sharper, etc. The computer designs are also better. So too are the techniques used to assemble the guns too.

I'll pick the average new Merkel barreled action against any of the older ones and come away with the winner every time. Same for most quality gun lines still in business, German or otherwise. If a gun company is worth its salt, it has improved its line over the years with all of these advantages.

Costwise, things have improved. It is simply that our money has been so watered down over the years from inflation that, with a few exceptions, we forget that costs for manufactured goods are actually lower today value for value.

About the only thing that has gotten harder to get at a good price is the stock wood. High quality walnut is more expensive today due to increased demand. There are just more guns being made including more high end guns. So wood quality does suffer grade to grade as time goes by.

So now we see manufactures turning to man made materials here too. Some of these materials are far better than wood too. I personally just can't get past them, but I grew up in a different time.

I know more than one rifle nut friend that thinks I'm dumber than the rocks I stand on for choosing walnut for my gun stocks. I've seen some of the groups these boys now shoot and have seen how well their guns stay zeroed year in year out to argue with them. they are absolutely right--and I still pick walnut.

But by and large, a new Merkel double is at least as good as any of the older ones. Better believe it. That is not to say any of the well cared for older ones are not good guns. They are just not better. No way.