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< 16ga. Guns ~ Win Mod 12 vs Rem 870 Receiver Dimensions |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:48 pm
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Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 714
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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While taking some measurements of a few guns for another topic I pulled out a '53 Winchester Mod 12 16ga. to see how it compared to an early 870 Remington 16ga. Since we all know that a Mod 12 is the epitome of grace and balance since it is built on a 20ga receiver and the Rem 870 is the proverbial "pig on a shovel" since it is built on a 12ga receiver I thought these measurements might raise a few eyebrows.
Here are the results comparing a '53 Win. Mod 12 16ga to a '52 Rem 870 16ga. Both have 28" plain barrels.
Height of receiver at loading port. Mod 12 2.302", 870 2.302". Exactly the same!
Height of receiver at solid section in front of loading port. This is where most people would hold the gun while carrying with one hand. Mod 12 2.425", 870 2.338". The 870 is .087" smaller!
Width of receiver. mod 12 1.288", 870 1.325". The mod 12 is .037" smaller. But wait! the mod 12 has a thickened area in front of where the buttstock mounts which is 1.345" wide making the 870 .020" narrower overall!
The Mod 12 receiver is 6 13/16" long, the 870 is exactly 1" longer. The Win Mod 12 is also 1" shorter in overall length of the gun.
Both guns have exactly the same stock dimensions, 14" LOP, 1 1/2" DAC, and 2 1/2" DAH.
The Mod 12 weighs 6# 10.5 oz, the 870 weighs 6# 9oz. I know some Mod12's are lighter, mine must have a heavy buttstock. The 870 also has a beavertail forend so an 870 with a ringed type forend would be an ounce or two lighter.
The Mod 12 balances 4 7/8" in front of the trigger, the 870 5 3/4". I find the 870 better for long crossing shots because of the more forward balance. The Mod 12 seems a little "quicker" for short fast shots.
All this shows is that other than the 870 being an inch longer, the rest of the receiver dimensions are almost the same with the 870 slightly smaller in some areas in spite of the fact that the 870 is built on a 12ga frame.
I hope some of you will find this interesting. I know I did. |
_________________ Dennis
Current 16ga. Stable
Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12 |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:03 pm
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Now just think about how much sweeter that 870 would have been built on the Remington Light Weight frame . |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:09 pm
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Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 714
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Twice Barrel wrote: |
Now just think about how much sweeter that 870 would have been built on the Remington Light Weight frame .
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I agree! |
_________________ Dennis
Current 16ga. Stable
Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12 |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:01 pm
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Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 234
Location: KY
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I don't think that the "pig on a shovel" comment is indicative of the earlier production 870s. I think it is for the misguided efforts of Remington to "bring back" the 16 ga 870 by boring a smaller hole in a 12 gauge 870. |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:46 pm
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Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1257
Location: Nebraska
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That point of carry at the front of the receiver is a key dimension, or set of dimensions, that makes a gun a little more or less comfortable to me. The balance is a major factor in how the gun carries as well, and that can be changed via the stock set or the barrel. For my M12 a 30" solid rib barrel/thin ringed forearm and relatively heavy buttstock make it all come together well. Another I've got with a 28" plain barrel/heavier forearm and relatively plain buttstock is good, but thinning out the buttstock and going to a ringed forearm should maintain balance and lose an ounce or two.
I liked the M31 16ga I owned, and the early 870's I've handled were pretty slick as well. On any given day, one might shoot better for me than one of my M12's, no matter the balance/dimensions, but I can only carry one at a time!
kgb |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:38 pm
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Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 714
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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smashdn wrote: |
I don't think that the "pig on a shovel" comment is indicative of the earlier production 870s. I think it is for the misguided efforts of Remington to "bring back" the 16 ga 870 by boring a smaller hole in a 12 gauge 870.
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That was a little sarcastic humor on my part. I like my old 870 and think it handles very well. So many people comment about the 870 being made on a 12 ga frame like it automatically makes it a bad gun whether it is an old model or one of the newer ones. I was hoping this post might get some people to quit thinking this way, at least about the old ones.
I have never had the opportunity to shoot one of the newer ones. I did pick one up at a Gander Mountain once and it seemed extremely muzzle heavy which makes sense having a 12ga barrel with a 16ga bore. |
_________________ Dennis
Current 16ga. Stable
Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12 |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:10 pm
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Northern California
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My understanding is the M12 16ga. was built on a 16ga frame and the M12 20ga is on the same 16ga frame. I like 16ga M12s and 870s [old ones] also I like the 1100 but only as a target gun. The model 1100 is very muzzle heavy and makes a good target gun. I used have a 20ga LW and it was a good hunting gun[ traded for a benelli 20ga.] Wrong...... |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:06 pm
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Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 714
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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Del,
I looked in the Blue Book and it shows the 20ga being introduced in 1912 and the 16ga being introduced in 1914. |
_________________ Dennis
Current 16ga. Stable
Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12 |
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Posted:
Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:21 pm
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Kentucky
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Square load Thank you for taking time to provide that data. I found it very interesting. I get a little tired of the 870 bashers here. If you don't like them don't buy one. I do agree however that the newer 870's are pretty heavy in the front end, However I find that true for all gages and most screw choke guns form any brand unfortunately. But that's just me, heck I like plain barrels because I find ribs pretty heavy too. |
_________________ The chance to act magnamously toward others often lasts but an instant, the chance for regret lasts forever. |
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Posted:
Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:20 pm
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Northern California
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Yes the early catalogs list a 20ga only till 1914. In reality the model 12 was made in 12 and 16 almost from the beginning of production. catalogs listed only the 20ga. Do not belive all that you read in the blue book. This info is from the book by George Madis, The Winchester Model Twelve.... the 16ga and 20 ga share the same reciever..as does the rare 28ga. but thats is another story.... |
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Posted:
Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:11 am
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Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts
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I guess I'm better off with my model 37 guns after all. Hey, I gotta get lucky once in a while. |
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Posted:
Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:39 pm
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Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 714
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
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16gaugeguy wrote: |
I guess I'm better off with my model 37 guns after all. Hey, I gotta get lucky once in a while.
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Aw Geez, not this crap again! |
_________________ Dennis
Current 16ga. Stable
Browning Citori Gr I
Browning Belgium Sweet 16
A.H. Fox Sterlingworth
Remington 11-48
Remington 31
Remington 870
Geco/J.P. Sauer BLNE
Winchester Mod 12 |
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Posted:
Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:40 pm
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Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 50
Location: New Jersey
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I have handled the new 870 16 ga. and have not been impressed with its heavy weight. A tad too heavy for my tastes in this gauge. I wonder if Remington ever thought to take the NEW 870 16 ga. pump (using that 12 ga. receiver) and build it in the old 870 Special Field configuration I am so fond of? With a straight grip stock, the newer light-contour barrel at 24" or 26", this gun would be an upland terror.
I have an '84 SF 12 ga. that I use often each season and while I abhor the stumpy 21" bbl., I like its quickness and weight for upland gunning. |
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