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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:52 am  Reply with quote



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I have been seeking information about wads that fit tighter in straight walled cases then got to thinking about the physical properties of the plastic that most wads are composed of-specifically the amount of memory in the plastic. What got me thinking about this is that spent wads will retain their flared out shape for years. I have a small bag of samples I saved in my college days to verify it.
Yesterday I dug out a few wads:WAA-16 (CB) and SP16 Rem. The obturating cup on the WAA-16 wads is quite deep and radiused, the SP16 gives little to work with. I took the wads and rolled the edge of the gas seal to flare it outward. The result is a healthy increase in diameter. Now that it is tomorrow, the wads have retained their shape and size. Running them through the wad guide does not collapse the flared seal either.
This may solve problems with powder migration in straight walled cases with finer flake powders like Longshot. Yes it is a flake (almost a flattened disc), not a ball powder as I read in another post. True ball powders are another story, but most of us use some sort of flake powder. Seems like a better (and safer) solution than using pieces of sandwich bags.
Bets of all-simple, cheap, and easy. I will note that the SP16 retained its flare too, but it just does not have much material to flare.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:02 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks for posting about your research and suggested solution of pre-flaring wad base skirts to prevent powder migration. It sounds like a workable solution to a common problem. However, most properly researched and published reloading data is generated using unmodified components. Asterisks and footnotes are usually included to indicate any modifications or additions (like filler wads etc.) made to the components.

My experience indicates loads which already show evidence of unacceptably low pressures like excessive amounts of unburned powder and residue, poorly obturated wads, and/or inconsistent weak reports would be good candidates for you idea. It is well worth a try. But in my opinion based on my experience, it is never a good idea to make changes to any loads which already generate average peak pressures higher than 9500 PSI. As usual, understanding, moderation, and common sense rule here.

Thanks again for your excellent idea. Good luck with your 16 ga. reloading.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:29 am  Reply with quote



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I believe I tried your idea after the 1st trip too the REZ . Had some unexpected poor loads . A golf ball was sitting near the loading bench and caught my eye . Used the golf ball to flare some loads that had blurped - they didn't sound much better to my chagrin . Just seems like a lot of things that are borderline will tilt one way or the other and become difficult children ! The original Win wads and the older CB's I'd save for tight cases . I believe CB is addressing our concerns with the newer version of that wad - hopefully tilts it to the good !

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:44 am  Reply with quote
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That's good news. Sounds like Clay Buster is once again, on the ball for us 16 ga. reloaders.

I've never understood why this simple modification was not done before. It's an elegant solution to a common problem. To my mind, it should be reasonably easy to compress an already generous and supple wad base skirt in the wad guide to seat it in the hull. The skirt will then expand again. End of powder migration problems. Works for me. Thanks for the heads up.

For those of us who also rely on Remington SP16 and R16 wads for some of our loads, a small patch of plastic wrap placed over the wad skirt still works to eliminate powder migration and squib loads. Use this idea wisely though and avoid using it in loads which already generate peak pressures above 9500 PSI.
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dukxdog
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:09 am  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:


For those of us who also rely on Remington SP16 and R16 wads for some of our loads, a small patch of plastic wrap placed over the wad skirt still works to eliminate powder migration and squib loads. Use this idea wisely though and avoid using it in loads which already generate peak pressures above 9500 PSI.


FYI- This practice actually raises the PSI significantly and should not be done. Sounds simple and good but it's not.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:30 am  Reply with quote



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I was waiting to see how many folks would weigh in on just that issue before continuing so as to avoid an excessively lengthy post.
Most wads do allow a tiny fraction of the expanding gases past before the seal in the hull is made. The looser the fit, the more pronounced the effect. The question is, just how much affect does it have?
I will relate a few thoughts. The primer creates an impressive shock wave when ignited. Much of the flaring of the gas seal, if not all, may take place during this violent event. Especially with a tightly crimped hull. That said, does a tighter fitting gas seal raise pressure due to a better seal or cause the wad to move forward sooner upon primer ignition thus increasing available expansion volume for the now burning powder (which would lower pressure)?
I do have some actual field experience with pre flared wads, but the conditions are different. In my college years I had precious little money but also lived in the country and had a reloading press. I had the luxury of shooting whenever I wanted. Due to lack of funds and somewhat poor availability of wads where I lived, I would collect spent wads from the pasture and reuse them in my practice ammo. I never had any issues. I should add that when I load I prefer moderate pressures to improve patterns anyway, so any increases may have gone unnoticed. Any major decreases should have been noticeable.
Let the discussion begin...

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:34 pm  Reply with quote
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The discussion will be all speculation, the whole event from primer ignition to muzzle exit happens over a 4 millisecond time period.

If a little powder gas leaks by so what?

Your statement about pressure and patterns is incorrect.

Acceleration, creates the set back that deforms the pellets, not pressure.

If that were the case any load at 11,000 PSI wouldn't pattern as well as a load that creates 8,000 PSI and that just isn't true.

There is a lot more to good patterns than pressure and velocity. Barrels also vibrate which has an effect on patterns, that is why some guns like certain loads over others. Then there are forcing cone configuration and choke configuration, atmospheric conditions, blah blah blah.

Unfortunately, some folks look at pressure and velocities as the evils, never have been and never will be.

Powder migration is probably a bigger problem than gas seal leakage on a well made wad.

Also every wad was never made to be used in every hull.

My 2 cents, if a wad fits without creating powder migration and wad column height issues you are going to be OK. If you have to manipulate the powder gas seal for powder migration problems or use fillers for wad column height problems......find another wad.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:17 pm  Reply with quote



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If a little gas leaks by so what? Are you missing the point? If the wad is moving forward and some gas leaks by BEFORE the seal is made, this does have an affect on the pressure curve. All things being equal, having more of the gas in a sealed environment will result in greater energy transfer to the payload and vice versa, hence the idea of "vented" wads. The theory behind those being that the charge gets started before things seal up tight (to increase available expansion volume)and results in a lower pressure peak in the search for a way to burn more powder to make more velocity. Anyway, this is becoming a tangent to the issue.
Pressure and pattern. You state that pressure does not affect pattern, yet admit that ignition setback does. When greater pressure is developed to accomplish the same acceleration, setback is likely to increase. Also, setback duration plays a role and is why some folks play with slower powders and search for the so called progressive burn. Pressure is not the only factor, but it is one. And yes, I fully comprehend the blah,blah, blah you allude to.
Vibrations? With my varmint rifles a concern, still doubting it with shotgun barrels. Choke, bore, and forcing cones are a very legitimate point, but once again straying off topic.
One of the blah, blahs not mentioned is shot cup design. I have looked into the measurements of the euro hull friendly wads, most are a superb fit but the petals appear to come up short of holding 1-1 1/8 oz. of shot. Having pellets above the cup does not in any way add to pattern efficiency, thus the ongoing search for something that actually fits and protects ALL of the shot charge.
I do look at velocity as a serious factor as well. The laws of physics don't change because we want them to. Increased velocity equals a disproportionate increase in air resistance. A little extra speed amounts to a much larger increase in resistance. The less aerodynamic the projectile, the bigger the problem. Air resistance opens patterns. This is why my close range loads for blue and ruffed grouse are typically run at much higher velocities (amongst other changes). Once again, of the topic of the wad seal but I did inadvertently open this door.
Just out of curiosity, your initials aren't R.W., are they. This conversation seems remarkably similar to one I had elsewhere a year or two back. As far as finding another wad goes, two thoughts. If I can find a wad that fits my criteria, I will buy it. Second, in the realm of 16 ga. loading there is no certain future. Wads get discontinued and having another option is not bad. For that matter, how many folks here ran out of DR-16's and were looking for an alternative until production resumed? Hmmm...

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Woody402
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:10 am  Reply with quote



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Carry your shells brass down in your vest to eliminate powder migration?
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:42 am  Reply with quote
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First things first....you and I have no way of knowing if there is any leakage past a gas seal. We can guess that's about it.

What we can know is if the load is consistent, through using a chronograph. If it is consistent at both 70 degrees and 0 degrees you can safely assume you have a good load. That's why I couldn't care less if there is leakage, I want consistent results.

Acceleration is responsible for deforming pellets not pressure. There is no direct correlation between pressure and acceleration. If there was, every load that developed 10,000 psi would push the load to the same fps and that is not the case, even with the exact same wad and payload.

The rest has been pretty well established by Mr. Lowry and more recently Dr. A.C. Jones in his book.

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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:05 am  Reply with quote
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Acceleration is "a change in velocity" . Velocity is NOT a function of pressure. Just as recoil is a function of velocity Not pressure. Dogchaser is correct.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:31 am  Reply with quote



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The whole gas leakage point is that once the wad is pre-flared it may reduce gas leakage and affect pressure. I merely am offering a solution for powder migration for reasons already listed.
As far as pressure, acceleration, and pattern is concerned, An extra 1-2000 pounds of force being developed behind a shot charge is going to transfer energy. It does not magically disappear. Conservation of energy: the forces will all be applied somewhere. The more force that the malleable lead shot absorbs, the greater the deformation. This is known.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:49 am  Reply with quote
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Have a good day Wyo!!!

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oldhunter
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:23 am  Reply with quote
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Buy the right wads for the hulls you are using. Very Happy Embarassed Laughing Question

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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:56 pm  Reply with quote
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I would suggest an adult education class in Physics ,and listen this time

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