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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:48 am  Reply with quote
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WyoChukar, I am a real chicken shit guy, been that way for 72 years. I am not going to change.

I would like to buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think you are worth. Wink

Dale

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

byrdog, we are on the same page as to pressure and velocity not being directly relative to one another. I made reference to setback and acceleration since setback takes place during the initial acceleration, that's all.
Mike, I am not that interested in the low pressure (sub 7000 psi) either. I hope I didn't give that impression. Your comments are truly useful. I especially appreciated the measurements of the wads I have not yet gathered up.
Dave mentioned light charges from Mec bars. The bushings typically run a little light also. I mostly use an adjustable bar and the charges have been weighed out though.
Cheyenne, where have I boasted or claimed to be of a specific worth? Show me. You can't. The worst I have done is defend myself. I have been arrogant in no way toward anyone. I even gave you credit for being able to post useful comments. So far you have shown me otherwise. Your last one shows that perhaps someday you will grow up. Or at least stop borrowing tired cliche's. You came to the party late hoping to kick a man already down. You have revealed much about your character. If you would like to put this behind us I am willing, if not, the sun will likely rise tomorrow anyway.


Last edited by WyoChukar on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

byrdog, I notice in some of your other posts you really like Longshot. I am new to the powder and plan to make use of it in my 16 ga. hunting loads as well. It looks like a very good match for the purpose. It is however a fine grain powder which brings up the question, what wad and hull combinations are you using for the 1 oz. and heaver recipes? Powder migration issues?

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mike campbell
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:22 am  Reply with quote
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Rolling Eyes


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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:02 am  Reply with quote
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I will add this but I know I will regret it.....

Wyo,

This pressure/acceleration stuff.

I was trying to build proof loads, which is a bit harder than you may think, any way.....

When you first get a load to perform reasonably well, the pressure is a bit low and it takes x amount of powder to increase the velocity. As you get into the area where the powder wants to perform it takes x-1, to get a rise in velocity. As you begin to enter into pressures well over SAAMI MAP, you start to notice that x-1 and x amounts of powder don't increase the velocity much at all, but the pressure begins to rise sharply. That is all with using the same exact components, except you are adding powder.

Be aware that peak chamber pressure happens at about .5 millisecond into a 4 millisecond event. The ONLY thing that peak chamber pressure is telling you is how the load compares to the SAAMI standards.

Looking at chamber pressures in a reloading manual, tells you absolutely nothing when it comes to patterns, velocities, if there is powder gas leakage around the wad obturating cup etc.

There is this OMG look on too many peoples faces when they see a load at SAAMI MAP.

Many of the best patterns I have seen use fast powders with the pressure close to SAAMI MAP.

I patterned some 7/8 oz. loads @ 1400 FPS and they did just fine holding the correct pattern for the constriction I was using. Those loads were also near 11,000 PSI.

I have patterned 100's of loads and you really can't make statements about pressure and velocity and their effect on loads. When E.D. Lowry wrote his CD on Ballistics for Windows he doesn't even mention internal ballistics, because the effect is small compared to other factors. The only thing you try to do with internal ballistics is to keep them consistent, either your shotgun likes the load or it doesn't. You can't go directly to velocity and pressure and claim them to be the bad guys.

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fn16ga
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:13 am  Reply with quote
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Mike , You can get them here. http://www.gamaliel.com/claybusterwads/Claybuster_Wad_16ga_7_8oz.asp

The ones I tried came from Claybuster , they sent me 50 as a sample . I tried them in the RGL with 15gr GD , loaded great and shot very good .
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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I don't know why you would regret it. You bring an intelligent and coherent post to the discussion and I have no desire to be derogatory, I am actually grateful.
I may be new to this site, but am not a beginner. I have seen the information concerning pressure curves and how adding more powder only gains pressure beyond a certain point and that it is an equation of geometric progression at that point.
I too spent years patterning and will be doing that again now that I have a new gun. My past experience indicates that it is easily possible to make a load that holds patterns tighter than a given constriction would indicate and I had better luck doing that with loads closer to 9,000 psi (published) so will use that as a starting point.
The original concern about gas leakage was whether or not a pre flared obturating cup would cause pressures to rise. I too could care less if there is minor leakage with a good performing load, I just was curious if it would raise pressure noticeably and therefore be a concern for those who might use it in low pressure loads for antique guns proofed with the lighter 3 ton standard.
Of course all of this debate over the best patterns/ efficiency primarily applies to longer field shots anyway. From a hunter's standpoint, birds are often taken at ranges and angles where absolutely none of it matters anyway. One exception is late season huns or prairie grouse where shots are very frequently on the longer side.
On a personal note, sorry to mistake you for "R.W"! I see from some of your other posts that we share much of the same disagreements with him and his articles. I hope I did not offend you.


Last edited by WyoChukar on Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:22 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:58 am  Reply with quote
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No offense taken Wyo.

The regret comes in because most times when there is a thread on pressure, it degenerates.

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oldhunter
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:58 pm  Reply with quote
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Mark. I think pressure is the most misunderstood part of the firing of a shot shell. Half of the people are scared of it, when actually a higher pressure is a good thing. Pressure is what made clays powder one of the most popular powders. High pressure, clean burning and decent velocities.

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mike campbell
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:26 pm  Reply with quote
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rdja
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:13 pm  Reply with quote
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In regards to Longshot and the Claybuster wad in a Cheddite hull. This past season, I loaded the following recipe. 27 grs of Longshot, Cheddite hull, Win 209 primer, Claybusters WAA16 wad and 1 oz of #6 shot and 71/2 shot.

Shot them 2 days later over a 5 hour hunt and had no problems with bad loads. Plus I think these were older wads before they started saying they were now wider.
I still have a few sitting in the safe I should cut one open and look for migration. Maybe let it ride in the door pocket of the car for a week or so first.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Good to know. A young friend from Iowa dropped by today and we went shooting, my supply of "Heter's" Cheddite empties continues to grow. I will likely be trying a longshot recipe for 1 1/8 oz. soon. I may stick with green dot or 800-x for standard 1 oz. loadings. Longshot does look like a great candidate for buffered loads in both 1 and 1 1/8 oz. offerings.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:18 am  Reply with quote
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dukxdog wrote:
16gaugeguy wrote:


For those of us who also rely on Remington SP16 and R16 wads for some of our loads, a small patch of plastic wrap placed over the wad skirt still works to eliminate powder migration and squib loads. Use this idea wisely though and avoid using it in loads which already generate peak pressures above 9500 PSI.


FYI- This practice actually raises the PSI significantly and should not be done. Sounds simple and good but it's not.


As for increased pressures generated by using a modest plastic wrap patch or two over a too small wad base to prevent powder migration, it all depends on how it's done and exactly what is being used. Plastic food wrap is quite thin. One or sometimes two 1 inch square (think modest here) patches laid over the base of a wad do not add considerably to the diameter, nor do they add a considerable amount of resistance when the load is fired. The very light and thin plastic patch simply gets blown into the hollow of the wad base when the load is fired and follows the wad out of the barrel.

I very much doubt the efficiency of a first generation wad base gas seal (Remington R16/SP16) will be increased to some extreme level or its shape to become distorted by some unknown phenomenon. At least that has been my experience when I've examined the spent wads. I can't say exactly what happens to the patches. I've never found any. I've also never witnessed any examples of pressure spikes or any other problems when I've used a thin modest patch to prevent powder migration in a moderate load either. I'm sure pressures have been increased to some degree, but not to some dangerous level.

Of course, common sense tells us not to modify anything if we are already playing with load pressures known to already be above mid-range (say 9500 PSI or more). I'd also not recommend trying to wrap a fairly thick, stiff, resistant over-sized piece of plastic wrap over a wad base and then stuff it on top of a max charge of powder either. Who knows what would happen. I believe one of us tried that with some high pressure buckshot loads. Didn't work out so well either. He complained quite a bit about his experience. I would too. Laughing

Anyway, I don't want to find out what he found out. I doubt anyone with common sense would either. Moderation is the best policy. Been working for me for a long time. Might work for anyone.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Hi Mike Campbell,

The new CB 16 Gauge wad is available, I bought some from Gamaliels.

I used mine in RGL's with Universal and Unique powders, mostly because those powders function my 1100 best.

Nice tight crimps, no migration in the RGL's at all.

Not much to not like.

I also tried them in Cheddites and Federals, they fit kinda loose and had dished crimps with 7/8 oz. payloads. I can think of better wads to use for those hulls.

One of these days I am going to find out if Green Dot will cycle my 1100 reliably.

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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
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Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

Mark - GD was INVENTED for 1100 12 ga's . I believe you'll find it works great and is a touch cleaner in your gas guzzler ! I would think it and the RGL a grand slam .

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