16ga.com ~ View topic - 2-2.5 inch roll crimp low pressure loads

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 2 Location: homer,alaska

I only find a few of these loads listed and can"t decipher the hand written stuff.Any ideas on some good loads for cold weather shooting?I am using cheddite and fiocchi hulls and want to keep my pressures under 8000 lbs.I want to keep my short chambered guns very happy."There is alot to be said for experience"Thanks for any help. Alaskaemurdae

Jody, the style crimp has little to no influence on pressure. The type of powder, the amount, the wad, the primer, and the amount of shot will. Some folks advise using longer shells in shorter barrels. That will never make sense to me in spite of the more qualified opinions to the contrary. I would use shells of the proper length or shorter.

I would also first establish just what max pressure your gun or guns are proofed for. I've heard several opinions that using only low pressure loads will extend the life of a good gun. This is true only when using guns made for low pressure loads. Shooting a straeady supply of mid to high pressure loads will not hurt a gun one bit if it is designed to do so.Carelessness, neglect, and improper repairs do far more damage.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

[quote="16gaugeguy"]Jody, the style crimp has little to no influence on pressure.

I will beg to differ with you on this one 16gg. I've looked at a lot of data from the 16 gauge low pressure group. And two exact loadings, one roll crimped and one 6 point crimped. On average, the roll crimp will be about 1000 PSI less.

Member Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Tucson, AZ

I had the same question and my "research" backs up what Dave has to say. BTW Dave, how do you have time to post on the forum, when it is bird season up there???? Laughing

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

It's been raining off and on for about a week. It was raining like crazy this morning. I'm heading out first thing Sunday morning. West wind at 5-10 mph. And temps. in the upper 40's. I spent this afternoon loading some 16 gauge spreader loads, I'm good to go. Wink

Member Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 450 Location: Indiana

Dave
I understand that this is a pretty good year for birds in Michigan.3 other fellows and myself are headed up to the UP the weekend of the 13 of Oct.
We will onlyl be their 3 days but probably back a couple of weeks late.

Enjoy the season Old 16

I get my info from the folks who make the powders and the componants. They have traditionally claimed there is not real difference if all things including shell length is the same. The professionals tested this point many decades ago and found no real significance worth noting if both types were properly done. I would tend to follow their findings. They do this stuff for a living. Of course, they were also using waxed paper hulls back then too. I'll bet plastic hulls has a number of effects that are hard to determine.

Could the difference in pressure you are getting have something to do with the opened, actual fired length of the shells in relation to the forcing cones or chamber length? Folded crimps require less shell length to accomodate equal powder/wad/shot columns. This extra needed shell length is the reason many guns were given 2-3/4 inch chambers originally when folded crimps became the norm.

Finished folded crimp depth can also influence pressures significantly. Average crimp depth for a proper folded crimp is .050" for an STS or AA type hull. I've found that different plastics and different shell mouth thicknesses will dictate what the actual depth must be for the crimp to stay closed.

Federal polyformed game hulls often seem to need deeper folded crimps than some others to stay closed. This depth can also vary according to just what the mature of the plastic is they are using from year to year. Federal game hull wall thicknesses and plasticity varies more than any other I've ever encountered.

I'm not a roll crimper. However, I'm certain there are many more variables involved in this matter of crimp types, depthes, type hulls, etc., etc. than anyone of us can accurately determine. 1000 psi is significant if you are alrerady pushing the upper limits of what your gun can take. If you are loading for an older, low pressure type gun, I'd say play it safe and stay well below your top pressures. If that requires rolled crimps, then roll away and stay safe. Its better than finding out the hard way.

That is the main reason I don't shoot anything but modern 16 ga. or smaller bored shotguns. I like the old timers for their asthetics. However, I want the most rugged guns I can get and shoot the most effective ammo I can for hunting. I want that bird dead in the air on impact, regardless of gauge. I can get that from well designed potent modern reloads or hard hitting top quality factory hunting ammo if I also recognize and respect the limitations of the gauge itself.

Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 173 Location: S. E. Arizona

I have a few loads that would work for you. PM me.

Roll crimped loads vs. star crimped loads -- rolled crimps allow the development of the same loads as a star crimped load, but in somewhat shorter hulls. If you are willing to do the work, trimming the folded part off of a 2-3/4" hull will leave you a nice, fresh 2-5/8" hull for roll crimping,

As far as I can tell, and from doing my homework, there is no significant difference in pressure resulting from firing the same load and hull length in either a 2-1/2" chamber or a 2-3/4" chamber. The danger is that the longer cartridge is capable of being loaded to pressures that exceed the design limits of the shorter chambered gun. This is commonly the case with SAAMI specification (US spec) ammunition. According to the British 1954 Rules of Proof, 16 bore, 2-1/2" nominal chambers are proofed for 3 tons maximum service pressure - approximately 8500 PSI. This is much lower than the SAAMI 16 gauge specification (which IIRC is 11,000 PSI). Sherman Bell and Larry Brown have both done research on this, as have several British arms experts.

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 Posts: 2 Location: homer,alaska

Howdy from Homer. I have four short chambered guns and have been reloading differently for each gun , according to the barrel composition and strength.(proof rating) I have been hand loading with Fiocchi and cheddite plastic hulls and have been roll crimping with an antique crimper and it is working out fine. I have been cutting down the hulls according to the volume of each load .(usually 2 to 2.5 inch) I have been using some of the fold crimp recipes from the low pressure group and also from the 16 ga. loading manual from BPI.(I have noticed this week that there seems to be some distrust of their formulas)I have been testing everything in my citori first, then my L.C., then my fox A grade. My last gun is an 1886 Mac Naughton sxs that has 32 inch proof tested barrels.I have only used brass cased loads of 5500 pounds pressure on this gun and won't try anything hotter unless I have had it tested by Armbrust.So I am enjoying different loads and was hoping there were others out there doing comparable loads for there vintage guns that they might share.I am interested in hunting loads for snipe,grouse and up to pheasant. Thanks for the reply!!!!!!!!!J.M. Surprised