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< 16ga. Guns ~ English guns |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:36 am
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Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York
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16ga friends, I'm hoping for some general advice about English (or Scottish) side-by-side's. First of all, I should say that I agonize over gear before I actually pull the trigger (so to speak) I read reviews and do research and try things out extensively. Maybe its a little too much but, generally speaking, its worked for me. The goal is to have a relatively small amount of gear that is the right gear.
Anyway, all of this is to say that I'm starting to consider an English or Scottish gun. I've planned for awhile now to buy a quality but plain jane boxlock and had more or less settled on a new Ugartechea or used Aya 4/53. I continue to think either of those would be a good choice but have always been enamored of the English guns. I thought price and availability would be a barrier but lately I'm realizing that the price difference might not be as much as I thought.
I've done some reading and I think I'm aware of the basic red flags when it comes to buying a decent English or Scottish gun; however, I could definitely benefit from the expertise of folks on this group. What should I look out for? Where should I look? Am I way off base in terms of price? School me... |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:57 am
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak
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Hi, I'm a huge fan of Brit guns and I've found them to be the cats meow. It seems like you've done some homework, so no sense in going over old ground. The biggest issue IMO with Brit guns are the barrels. Is the gun in Proof, what is the wall thickness of the bbls (have they been honed etc), have they been monkeyed with etc. I would suggest that before you buy, I'd read/get the following:
https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Collecting-Restoring-Shooting/dp/160239198X
https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-British-Shotguns-Shooting-Sportsman/dp/0892727748/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471801597&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Vintage+british+shotguns+by+weiland
These two books cover it all.
If your looking for a 16b, it will be a bit more expensive than a 12b gun, but I will tell you that a 16b Brit gun is really something. A wonderful carry, great handling and a joy to hold and shoot.
I would suggest two dealers who have a very good reputation for quality guns and honesty:
http://www.vintagedoubles.com/
http://www.hillrodandgun.com/index.php
A 16b gun with be in that 5 3/4lb to 6 + lbs range and a 12b form around 6 1/4 to 6 3/4 lb range.
If you have any specific questions, please post them.
One thing for sure, you won't be sorry in getting a Brit gun!
Good Luck!
Greg |
_________________ Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:31 am
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Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 367
Location: Anchorage, AK
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:31 pm
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Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN
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I appreciate English guns and craftsmanship, but I find them to be too expensive. The cachè of English guns is in my mind rather a marketing game.
I have bought fine used continental guns for far less. To each his own and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:04 pm
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak
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Good price cut, but the drawback is the store is in Canada. I think the import fees won't help us here in the States save much, but our Canadian friends will be getting a good deal.
Best,
greg |
_________________ Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:14 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy
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I hate to see Uggie quit making shotguns, they are, in my opinion, the best buy in SxS's.But there are a lot of them out there to choose from.
Dollar for dollar I would take an Uggie over MOST English doubles.
Dale |
_________________ One man with courage makes a majority.
...Andrew Jackson... |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:21 pm
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 688
Location: Ontario
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gjw wrote: |
Good price cut, but the drawback is the store is in Canada. I think the import fees won't help us here in the States save much, but our Canadian friends will be getting a good deal.
Best,
greg
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I've sent a few down (and brought some up) for some reasonable amounts. In the range of $250 per gun plus a small percentage of purchase price. If Will's regular price is competitive with US sourced Uggies, the 25% off will more than cover the cost of importation. |
_________________ 1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:27 pm
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Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 1391
Location: Denver, Colorado
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I own both English and Continental guns and while I like and use both, IMHO the English (& Scottish) guns are just a bit more refined in the areas of weight and balance.
The box-locks are where you can still find the bargains but, as has been mentioned above, you must do your homework. With any old British shotgun, you are buying barrels, so make darn sure you understand what that means. |
_________________ 'Tis better to burn out than it is to rust...... |
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Posted:
Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:00 pm
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Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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English guns intrigue me. Those who really like them tout them as the ne plus ultra of shotguns. My main problem is I get to see very few English guns so I feel I'm simply not knowledgable enough to buy one. I think it would be very difficult to research, study, ask questions and then buy one shotgun and wind up with "the gun". Not being clever enough to store vast sums of money away I would have to buy on the bottom end of these guns and feel I could easily wind up with a problem child. So, no guns from the British Isles for me.
An acquaintance of mine did pick up a beaut of a Scottish 16 last year at the Great Northern. Not a boxlock, but a silly trigger plate gun. 30" barrels, straight stock, DT and nicely engraved. We looked at it hard and decided it was a bargain - only about $14,000. A new one would run around $50,000. He shot a bunch of wild birds with it last year. So, there are bargains out there.
The books and the dealers that Greg mentioned above are an excellent place to start.
Regards,
Jeff |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:31 am
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Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1943
Location: Lowcountry Ga.
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Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:32 am
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Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Hampshire, England.
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I used to work for Westley Richards ( barrel filer) English shotguns are mostly handmade and are of great quality but it only takes one careless or sloppy owner to turn it into junk.
As someone else said, look at the gun not the name. |
_________________ Unspoilt by progress. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:35 pm
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak
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Gil S wrote: |
Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil
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Well said!
I will admit I have a soft spot for HR&G, Charlies is an absolute joy to work with. His return policy is one of the best and he will deal. He'll answer about any question you may have on a gun and will send you as many pictures as you want. He's tops in my book.
Good Luck!
Greg |
_________________ Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:34 pm
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Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York
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Thanks everyone, this definitely gives me some things to think about. I think some reading and research is still in order but you guys have confirmed a few things for me so that helps. I am surprised to hear that Ugartechea is on the way out though. I might need to reach out to LCS to see what they still have in stock. |
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Posted:
Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:25 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 989
Location: Las Vegas
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[quote="gjw"]
Gil S wrote: |
Buy the gun and not the name. Over the past handful of years, the best value for the money in an English gun is a BLNE. Disabuse yourself of a refinished gun being of questionable value as gun owners in the UK would often send their guns to their smith for seasonal maintenance which on occasion included rebrowning of barrels, reblackening of furniture and wood touch up. This was and still is an acceptable practice in the UK and Europe. I have had good experiences buying from Hillrodandgun and Vintagedoubles. HillR&G does a lot of importing of Britguns. I bought a gun from Hill R&G that had recently been re-chambered to 70mm and had been re-proofed in England in 2009. Despite being a pre-war gun, the barrel's breech ends still showed uniform filing marks from when the gun was made and barrels fitted. Both purchases were 16's. Gil
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Well said!
I will admit I have a soft spot for HR&G, Charlies is an absolute joy to work with. His return policy is one of the best and he will deal. He'll answer about any question you may have on a gun and will send you as many pictures as you want. He's tops in my book.
Good Luck!
Greg[/quote
Greg nails it on both his posts. Buy from a reputable dealer and my one experience with Chasrlie was great! I have 2 English blne's and their are wands in the field. Thin wrist, light, splinter forearm and choked appropriately for upland birds. One is chambered for 2 1/2" but I reload and if you don't, RST is perfectly suited for old English guns!
Can't speak for Scottish guns but I drooled over a Joseph Harkom for for a year before I realized the import fee made it impractical. During the process I heard more than once a bad gun never came out of Scotland.
Good luck in your search!
Matt |
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Posted:
Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:52 am
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Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak
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Hi, I have a 12b J. Harkom hammergun, an absolutlely wonderful gun, top shelf quality and a darn good shooter, one of my favorites!
Best,
Greg
PS if you enlarge the photo you can see the very fine engraving much better |
_________________ Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret |
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