16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading  ~  Lengthened Forcing Cone Dates
PRONGHORNSOUTH
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Dec 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Central Florida

Can someone enlighten me, as to when the shotgun manufacturers started to make forcing cones, to accept plastic wads?
I have a Pre-War Model 90 I'm going to have done, and was wondering about the forcing cone, on a 59 Sweet??
Figured I might ship the barrels together.
Thanks ahead of time, for your input!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kennedy756
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 434
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

I shoot a pre war mod 90, why is the longer forcing cone important?

_________________
16ga 3-Win 37
16ga Win 12 1953
16ga Ithaca 37 1946
16ga LeFever Long Range 1937
16ga Western Auto Revelation
16ga Browning A-5 1929
16ga 2-Intrac O/U
16ga Lefever nitro special 1925
16ga Marlin 90 1939
16ga browning citori lightning grade 3 2003
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Cold Iron
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 276
Location: Mn.

kennedy756 wrote:
I shoot a pre war mod 90, why is the longer forcing cone important?

It isn't, and gives no improvement to patterns. It may reduce recoil by reducing pressure and velocity if that is what your after. But when you apply metrics to it there is absolutely no improvement in lengthening forcing cones. Except for the 6 inches between the ears of those that insist on it.

Several people have tested it and proved there is no improvement. Those that say it helps can not prove it. One of several good reads on it here http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/when-you-lengthen-a-forcing-cone-winston.24067/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:54 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

As far as I know, tapered cones were first tried back in the late 1970's after one piece plastic wads became commonly used in hunting loads and after steel shot was introduced for use in non-toxic heavy water fowling loads. And yes lengthened cones do help based on my own trap shooting and load development experience. But it depends on a couple of things.

Pattern improvements from lengthened cones come only if we use well designed 2nd generation one piece plastic wads in efficient, well balanced loads. Lengthened cones can only hurt patterns if we are using solid wads or 1st generation plastic wads w/ stiff, skimpy base skirts. And nothing helps poorly designed, poorly made loads either. Just how it is.

Gas blow by is why. Only well designed 2nd Generation wads w/ generous, supple wad base skirts obturate well enough to seal in the hot gases as the wad/pellet column transitions from the hull mouth through a longer, more tapered forcing cone into the bore.

Loads using slow burning powders under significantly heavier shot charges of larger pellets also cause problems during transition. Longer cones tend to minimize the damage by allowing more space and time for longer shot columns of larger pellets to make the transition.

However, if we use well designed 2nd generation plastic wads like WW AA wads, their clones, the next generation Remington wads like TGT and Figure 8 wads, or the next generation Federal target load wads in well designed, well crafted loads, then patterns may be improved. For me, having my trap gun forcing cones lengthened did exactly that, and my scores went up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PRONGHORNSOUTH
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Dec 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Central Florida

Thank you 16GG,
I was hoping someone with your knowledge would answer that!
My answer, would not have been that informative, or clarifying, for sure.
Likely the opposite.... Smile


Last edited by PRONGHORNSOUTH on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FlyChamps
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:16 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 319
Location: Columbia, SC

I have several old guns with very short forcing cones and several modern guns with relatively long forcing cones.

I cannot tell the difference between them in patterns or performance on clays or birds. I'll never have any forcing cones lengthened because I don't believe they do anything except make gunsmiths money.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PRONGHORNSOUTH
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Dec 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Central Florida

The reason I ask is, the Sweet is a Mod choke.
Perception is, the short cone will tighten the pattern at a given distance.
I don't want that gun shooting any tighter than it does now.
In the 90', I occasionally shoot a powerful load, depending on the game being hunted.
Being as that gun is near 70 years old, I wanted to assure pressure was not approaching levels of concern.
That gun is also choked Mod / Full, and don't need any tighter patterns, as well.
So does anyone know when the Browning Sweets, were retooled to longer cones?
Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tdnathens
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:58 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Kentucky

(PRONGHORNSOUTH) The only sweet 16 that have normal (modern, not long ) forcing cones were the made in Japan models. I have measured over 100 Belgium made sweet 16's with barrels marked 2 3/4 inch. Not one barrel had a full length 2 3/4 chamber. All the barrels had very short forcing cone's measuring 3/8" to about 3/4". The forcing cones are the same length in barrels marked as 2/ 9/16. Most forcing cone reamers also cut the chamber at the same time if you want. I have found that lengthening the chamber to a full 2 3/4" while adding a long (1 1/2" plus) forcing cone really makes a lot of difference in perceived recoil. Someone else (not me) can argue about patterns. I fall into the longer is better camp. I cut longer forcing cones in all my 16 gauges, even modern one's that came with 2 3/4" chambers and normal length forcing cones. My findings(with long cones) are that with lead shot the patterns are not tighter but have more usable shot in the pattern. This is because of shorter shot strings. This is just my findings and beliefs, others will be different. Good luck with all your 16 gauges. It's one thing we all agree on.
Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:16 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

One thing to remember here. All older Belgian made Model 5's including the Sweets were designed and made for ammo w/ rolled paper hulls and solid card and/or felt wads (which was all that was available before 1960 or so). The shorter chambers and cones ensured gas blow-by couldn't normally happen or at least was greatly minimized.

The trade off is that perceived recoil tends to be sharper when firing modern ammo w/ plastic wads and full length 2-3/4 inch plastic hulls in older Belgian made Brownings w/ slightly shorter chambers and more abrupt cones. This includes Auto 5 and Superposed O/U models. The hull mouths of slightly longer full 2-3/4 inch plastic hulls are less pliable and protrude more into the old style extra short forcing cones. This constricts the shot/wad column more which results in slightly sharper perceived recoil. It's especially true when using heavier modern hunting loads, faster 1-1/8 ounce H-cap trap loads, and 1-1/8 ounce, 1200 FPS skeet loads.

As for Superposed target guns, I see no problem w/ lengthening the forcing cones and chambers if we want. I know others have done so. They've told me it helps both patterning and felt recoil. For trap and skeet shooting, that's a plus.

But I'm not familiar w/ the recoil operated Auto 5 models. I'd be hesitant to recommend it myself for fear of screwing up the load/eject system of others' guns. But that's just me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:27 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6533
Location: massachusetts

PRONGHORNSOUTH wrote:
Thank you 16GG,
I was hoping someone with your knowledge would answer that!
My answer, would not have been that informative, or clarifying, for sure.
Likely the opposite.... Smile


You are entirely welcome my friend. I'm always happy to try and help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PRONGHORNSOUTH
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Dec 2012
Posts: 114
Location: Central Florida

Thank you, tdnathans & GG,
That's a wealth of information to ponder! Haven't found anyone in this county, that can do the work. Maybe I'll contact Arts, and ask their feelings, on modifying the Sweet. Likely he's had that requested before. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
XVIgauge
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:59 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Central Florida

FlyChamps wrote:
I have several old guns with very short forcing cones and several modern guns with relatively long forcing cones.

I cannot tell the difference between them in patterns or performance on clays or birds. I'll never have any forcing cones lengthened because I don't believe they do anything except make gunsmiths money.



I agree totally. I have found no difference either. Some guys read too many gun magazine articles and then regurgitate the information.
xvigauge

_________________
"Terror lies not in the bang, but in the anticipation of it."
Alfred Hitchcock
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:35 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 1145
Location: Minneapolis

So what about the work Burt Becker did with the SuperFox,etc. The whole bore was tapered one end to the other. This is the extreme case of forcing cone lengthening, and I think it was proven to keep more shot in the pattern.

Long cones are all about gentle treatment of shot -- soft shot stays rounder, and hard, high coefficient of restitution, high yield strength shot (steel and tungsten alloys) is less excited to vibrate and destroy patterns, as well as being allowed to flow better and ease the "wedging" stress on barrels, lessening the chance for damage. There wasn't much talk about long cones and long chokes until just after the start of the steel shot era, when people were trying to find easy ways to minimize barrel damage in guns designed for lead.

In the case of lead shot and other "soft" shot, there is a question of how long the forcing cone has to be to show any effect. Just my conjecture, but I would say it depends on shot size. Clay target shooters might never see the difference between a 3/4 inch and a 2 inch forcing cone, shooting small shot as they do. The same might be true for most upland game situations. However, for large shot sizes, say those with diameters above 20% of barrel bore, longer cone length probably does give noticeable pattern improvement. So this should start to be significant in the 16 gauge, perhaps, in #5's or #4's.

Bore size vs. shot size is a fairly significant factor in the "gauge compromise" for the task or mission at hand -- e.g. the various clay target games, upland situations, waterfowl, live pigeon, even buckshot situations. In the end bore size all boils down to effective range -- of the gun, not the shooter, who is in the mix for practical performance, and the source of endless conjecture, the analysis of which is never very scientific or objective.

Of course the ratio of shot size to bore size is just one of the two major range limiters in the gauge choice. The other is internal ballistic limits -- pressure, or more particularly, practical barrel stress limits, the result of which is that, for guns of practical weight, bores of smaller size can only tolerate smaller shot charges. That, coupled with limitation to smaller shot sizes for patterning consideratons, limits downfield energy deliverable to the target as bore size decreases -- likely fewer pellet strikes of smaller pellets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:20 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1838
Location: Central CT

I think if you are looking for night and day differences with any barrel work you won't find it. If you put all the work done to barrels together (cones, porting, backboring and chokes with long leads and a reasonably long parallel section) you will find improvements.

The one improvement (not tighter patterns) is the ability for a shotgun to pattern well with a greater number of loads and not be fussy about what you feed it.

Not sure every shotgun will respond the same, but I have seen a few throw good patterns with no matter what load you feed it, after the barrel work.

Personally I have had two 16 ga. shotguns respond well to longer cones. An 1100 and later model Sweet 16 with Invector chokes.

Not sure tighter patterns are all that difficult to achieve, but a shotgun that patterns well with a wider selection of loads isn't a bad thing.

If you are looking for lower pressures or less recoil, longer forcing cones won't get either done.

_________________
Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1039
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have had very good results with long cones in 16, 12, and 10 bore guns. The recoil tends to be less sharp and patterns improve a little, especially as shot sizes increase. Spreading out the recoil "peak" is also a little easier on an old gun and its old wood.
Proper loading of course makes a difference as does proper choking. Lengthgening cones is no magic wand but rather another piece in the puzzle that leads to efficient patterning. Of course, most of this only matters beyond 35 yards and guns used in the ruffed grouse thickets realistically only benefit from the recoil reduction.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 1 of 3
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Ammunition & Reloading

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09