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llfriedman
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:08 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: San Rafael, California

A friend gave me a box of 16 ga. Winchester Double XX Magnum extra long range premium loads. 6 shot 1 1/4 oz. copper plated shot, 3 1/4 dr. eq. powder. I'm going to South Dakota to hunt wild pheasants with a Citori over/under 16 ga. Is this load excessive for these birds, or is it a good load for the second shot in the modified choke barrel? Are the ballistics ok with these shells in 16 gauge or are blown paterns to be expected? Will the recoil be excessive. I don't notice recoil with normal high base 1 1/8 oz loads.
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brdhnt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:06 am  Reply with quote
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Those were good loads, but really on the heavy side. Since they are no longer made, if I were you, I would sell those shells to a collector and use the Fiocchi Golden Pheasants in 1 1/8 ounce for those birds.

MHO

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Last edited by brdhnt on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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87016ga
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 145
Location: minnesota

iifriedman:
the same loading is still available thru federal ammo, if you wish.
as brdhnt suggests, go with the fiocchi's, they are excellent shells Wink
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:10 am  Reply with quote
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I have 2 boxes of the Winchester 16 ga. XX magnum 1-1/4 ounce in #5 shot. You could not pry them out of my cold dead hands. Winchester saw fit to protect the shot with a full length shot wrapper. They pattern superbly out of my Citori with up to 28 points of choke. I typically use 24 points.

These are the very loads that convinced me to design a comparable reload with as deep a shot cup as possible. I found some old Herters 1-1/4 ounce wads at KTP a few years back. This is exactly the wad I was looking for. It holds 90% of a full 1-1/4 ounce shot load of #5 or #4. With this wad, my loads are both faster than the Winchester loads and pattern about as well. However, those XX loads were probably the best long range 16 gauge loads ever sold IMO.
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87016ga
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 145
Location: minnesota

16gg:
how long are the shot strings on those "homemade magnums" Wink
1 1/4oz's Question Question how about a 12ga Question
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:36 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

My suggestion: Shoot the XX mags at pheasants if they are available to you; they are a really potent load and according to Bob Brister in "Shotgunning: The Art and Science", one of the best loads around...

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:18 am  Reply with quote
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87016ga wrote:
16gg:
how long are the shot strings on those "homemade magnums" Wink
1 1/4oz's Question Question how about a 12ga Question


I Dunno. I keep forgetting my shot string measuring tape. All I can go by is how well the birds fold up when centered with one of these puppies. Any full choked pattern is going to be strung out longer. Thats how full chokes work.

However, both the Double XX load and my handload pattern over 70% at 40 yards and are well distributed. No pheasant sized bird is going to fly through it and come out alive.

For all practical purposes, the 16 is now as effective as a 12 ga. within a given range out to 40 yards or a bit more when shooting a comparable 1-1/4 ounce load. What has made this possible is modern plastic shot cups of sufficient depth. But this is hardly new information. This ballistic improvement has been recognized for well over 3 decades now. It's probably why the 16 is coming back as strong as it is. It's a viable gauge again for all but the largest waterfowl and will do the job in the worst conditions if loaded right.
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Ben Yarian
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: western PA

you might check the regulations in south dacota. i understand that it is non tox only. if those shells are copper plated lead and it is non tox only then you can't leagaly use them.
ben
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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I've been hunting out there for the last 3 years and no one has mentioned "non-toxic" to me in terms of use on pheasants...I've been using the black factory Remington 1 1/8 oz. "heavy game" loads in #6; kills 'em just fine.

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87016ga
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 145
Location: minnesota

16gg:
that's all well and good, but 1 1/4 oz is a 12ga load Question Exclamation
fiocchi, rem, win, 1 1/8oz of #5 and #4 can produce 70% patterns at 40 yrds with assumably shorter shot strings and less recoil.

i personally can't see trying to turn the 16 into a 12, but if that's what makes you happy, have at it.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:55 am  Reply with quote
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Usually, recoil is a non-issue with me when I'm hunting. When the bird goes up, my adrenilin does too. I could get whopped upside the head with a cast iron skillet right then, and all I'd probably notice is a slight ringing in my ears. Rolling Eyes

The other side of it is not having to drag along two guns for one species of bird. I sometimes get a long way from the car, especially on a tough day. Having a few "crushers" in the pocket is nice insurance. 1-1/4 ounce of 5's has a decent number of pellets. However 1-1/4 ounces of #4 is getting a bit thin. Its a good thing the 16 will handle them well enough to throw a decent pattern core. That extra pound of saved gun weight counts too on these days.

It's also good that these big #4 pellets hit about as hard as any pheasant needs, even those big, tough, heavily feathered old hold outs we sometimes encounter around the cedar swamps here in SE, New England. These old timers are survivors. Three or four in the vitals folds them up right now. I'd suspect its the same for Midwest roosters too. A tough, cagey old bird is exactly that no matter where he's from.

If I knew beforehand that this is what I'll be facing, I would prefer a 12 ga. 1100 auto with 1-1/2 ounces of #4. I've done this often enough in the past, before discovering the 16, and before the years shortened my legs so to speak. We can't always count on easy birds in the NE. Things can change quickly here. The 16 has added miles and years to my ability to hunt. We all must use what works best for us.
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MGF
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:43 pm  Reply with quote
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Not about the original question, but:

I've got a box of those Winchester XX in 12 ga. -- 2 3/4" and 1 1/2 oz. of No. 6. I bought the box nearly 10 years ago, and I still have 17 of the shells.

From a 6 lb game gun, they rock my world. I , too, don't usually notice recoil in the field. These are the exception. Unless called upon for anti-aircraft duty, I'll probably have those 17 shells for another 10 years.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:29 am  Reply with quote
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A few comments relative to the above:

I don't think there's any collector value in the old XX Mags, but there are certainly folks (like guy) that would love to get their hands on some. Fed does indeed offer the same load, and while the quality is quite good on those as well, the old Wins used a better and more effective plating method on their shot.

Like Guy, I have found that both the Win and Fed 1 1/4 oz loads tighten patterns quite a bit. Talking percentage here, since they obviously have more pellets than a lighter load. But when you work up reloads, remember that one reason the factory shells pattern so well is that they are buffered. Not many folks buffer their reloads, and in fact it's a dangerous process if you don't know what you're doing.

There is no general nontox requirement in SD. However, nontox is required on just about all the public areas in SD (not including the state-leased Walk-In Areas).
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birddog
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:51 am  Reply with quote
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At last report South Dakota requires non-toxic on public lands hunted there. Group from here goes out annualy and this seems to be the trend.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:26 am  Reply with quote
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The Winchester XX magnum 16 ga. loads I have are not buffered Larry. Mine come in the old red and gold box. they are also one piece cases, probably some of the first Winchester developed for the gauge.

My reloads are also not buffered. They do use the hardest shot I can get. Hard, high antimony shot, the full length shot cup found on old 1-1/4 ounce Herter wads, and Blue Dot with its very slow pressure curve help these loads pattern beautifully. No buffer seems to be needed.

I've also have found that bigger shot like #4 or #5 in a 16 seems to need less choke to pattern well. I've found this apparent in all the gauges to a certain extent. A 12 gauge will handle #3 and #2 better with slightly less choke than full. A 28 ga. will pattern better with #6 shot if the choke is backed off a tad from full, and so forth.

I don't fully understand why. However, it might be that shot that is considered about max for a particular bore will flow better or bridge less if the percentage of choke necessary for full patterns with finer shot is backed off some. Bigger pellets also tend to fly straighter because they have a greater percentage of surface area which makes them more resistant to distortion. Bigger shot also has more inertia and tends to follow a straighter flight path. It all seems to work together very well.

However, once shot that is too big to flow well through a given gauge is used, then buffering apparently becomes much more important. This has been recognised with very large shot like #2, #1, BB shot, and any sized buck shot. However, so far, #4 shot seems to flow well enough for me through a 16 gauge that buffering in not manditoty for good patterns, at least from what I can see from my test results.

I also should mention that both the guns I use for these magnum for gauge loads also have lengthened forcing cones. I believe this modification has a very positive effect on the patterns these guns throw with big for gauge shot. I got the idea from the writings of Nash Buckingham. Nash was one of the developers of the 3" 12 ga. magnum load for big waterfowl and long range duck shoooting. His ideass are still valid today it would seem. For me, they have paid dividends in letrting me use several small gauge guns for the bigger upland birds with consistant success.
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