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wellshooter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:54 pm  Reply with quote



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Great comparison Mike. But we need a pic with the W209, and didn't I read somewhere that the W209A is a tiny bit smaller than the W209. Maybe that's what the problem is. But I yield to you guys, all of you have more experience than I do.

I have been loading Herter's and Federal hulls with W 209's with no issues. They are not always tight but you can't pull the with a finger nail.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:00 pm  Reply with quote
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jbusch720 wrote:
This leaves me asking two questions. The load that I am using is published at 7,300 psi with W209 primers. Would a switch to a Fiocchi or Cheddite primer make the load unsafe? How much could velocities change if I was to substitute a larger primer?

Has anyone used Precision Reloading's Primer Pocket Correction Tool? It seems like it may take some extra time, but may not be so bad if you only have to use it on once fired hulls. Thanks everyone for your help so far.


In this case, using Cheddite primers is the quickest, easiest, and least expensive solution to your primer pocket problem. In my opinion, why would anyone bother to buy another unnecessary reloading tool and waste the time and effort to correct the problem the hard way. Good for tool retailers like Precision Reloading. Not so good for the customers IMO.

7.3K psi is quite low, actually too low for smokeless powder loads. Smokeless powders burn best at pressures above 9K psi. Going to a Cheddite primer certainly won't put your load above the red line. Even a magnum strength primer like a Federal 209A wouldn't do it with a load pressure this low.

I'd up the powder charge at least a grain or two to put the average peak pressure above 9K psi. You'll get a cleaner shooting load w/ better, more consistent ballistics and performance.

I also learned the following the hard way when I first began reloading my own ammo. The most common mistake in forming a completely closed, firm crimp is initially setting the crimp starter too high. Doing so won't incorporate enough hull mouth to get a fully closed, firm crimp. The next most common mistake is trying to correct the first mistake at the crimp forming station. The third one is trying to solve the first two mistakes w/ filler wads (or pinto beans Laughing ).

Filler wads are usually needed only if the wad you are using is designed for a heavier shot load than the one in you are loading (like using a Remington SP16, 1-1/8 ounce wad for 1 ounce or lighter shot loads etc). Smaller gauge nitro card wads (28 gauge, .135" thick nitro card wads for 16 gauge loads) are used to fill the bottom of an overly deep shot cup enough to displace 1/8 or 1/4 ounces of shot.

Smokeless powders are designed to have the right bulk and burn speed to perform best within a certain range of loads. International Clays and Green Dot are actually designed to be used in 1200 FPS or higher velocity 1-1/8 ounce 12 gauge target loads. They are both a bit too fast burning to be suitable for most one ounce or heavier 16 gauge loads. Universal Clays and Unique are better suited to one ounce 16 gauge loads, because they are a bit slower burning. But IC and GD both have the right burn speed to be almost ideal for 3/4 and 7/8 ounce 16 gauge loads.

Even very fast burning 12 gauge target powders like Red Dot or Clays can be used for 3/4 and 7/8 ounce 16 gauge loads, but they are both considered to be a bit too fast burning to be ideal. If they are used, the powder charges must be kept light enough to prevent excessive load pressures. So the resulting powder charges won't be bulky enough to be ideal. Slightly dished crimps may result. Even so, a slightly dished crimp caused by selecting a powder w/ too fast a burning speed can usually be corrected at the crimp start and crimp form stations (as you have already learned) without resorting to filler wads.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
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mike campbell wrote:
Cheddite primers, unfortunately, are the answer.
I recently picked up some 12ga Federal promo hulls to reload and toss; the newer version with a brass-washed head. I noticed they had a plastic base wad instead of the earlier fiber wad and figgered this has got to be a good thing. Then I found that EVERY domestic primer...even an F209....can be pushed in with finger pressure and pulled out with a fingernail. Apparently they need a Cheddite primer so I won't touch them again. Sad that I can't use a Fed primer in a Fed hull.

If I can convince myself that the pressure of a current load is </= 10,000 psi I don't give a second thought to primer substitution.

Mike some of the plastic base Federals will fit Cheddite primers and some will fit RIO/Fiocchi sized primers, the RIO/Fiocchi size is .001 larger than the Cheddite.
Look at your side panel on the boxes before you buy them, some say Made in France or Italy on them.
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Byron Whitlock
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
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Yes, 16gauge guy, the comment on using pinto beans as fillers was answered in your next paragraph in using wads designed for heavier loads with 7/8oz shot.
Maybe I wasn't clear in mentioning that I had used the 1oz version of the WAA16 wad by Claybuster and used the been as a filler.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:25 pm  Reply with quote
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Byron Whitlock wrote:
Yes, 16gauge guy, the comment on using pinto beans as fillers was answered in your next paragraph in using wads designed for heavier loads with 7/8oz shot.
Maybe I wasn't clear in mentioning that I had used the 1oz version of the WAA16 wad by Claybuster and used the been as a filler.


I like refried pinto beans in my burritos, but they make my crimps a bit mushy. Laughing
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:17 pm  Reply with quote
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New Federal 12 gauge hulls are not Cheddite they are RIO that is why the primer pockets are so big. RIO primers are the largest in diameter......larger than Cheddite also.

Cheddite hulls with Cheddite primers once reloaded will tightly hold Winchester and Federal 209 sized primers.


First hand info not something I heard at a gun club somewhere.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:23 pm  Reply with quote
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FWIW, I tightened up the primer pockets on 3,000 RIO and 1,000 new Federal hulls with the plastic basewad with a primer pocket tool.

I am not much for foreign primers, so yes I actually resized the primer pockets on 4,000 hulls.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:43 am  Reply with quote



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Dogchaser37 wrote:
New Federal 12 gauge hulls are not Cheddite they are RIO that is why the primer pockets are so big. RIO primers are the largest in diameter......larger than Cheddite also.

Cheddite hulls with Cheddite primers once reloaded will tightly hold Winchester and Federal 209 sized primers.


First hand info not something I heard at a gun club somewhere.

If you call Federal they won't admit to anything all they will say is the shells are not reloadable. Personally I think Ammo Companies should put some kind of warning on the side of the boxes telling people it's sub contracted ammo and not their own. I had this problem years ago with 16 gauge Winchester Super X ammo that was made by Fiocchi in Italy, but had Winchester all over the box. Unknowingly I reloaded them with Winchester primers and was popping primers upon firing, afterwards I noticed the side panel said Made in Italy but Winchester Customer service would never admit they had the shells sub contracted. Fiocchi rep researched it for me and found Winchester had sub contracted the 16 Gauge shells out to them, now they are made by Winchester Australia.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:52 pm  Reply with quote
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All empty shot shells in good undamaged condition can be reloaded despite what the ammo companies tell us. Their answers are more from a legal stand point to preclude liability lawsuits than from a practical or safety stand point. If this were not so, then none of us would be able to safely reload 16 gauge ammo. Since so many of us have been doing so safely and successfully for such a long time w/o too many difficulties (or missing body parts Laughing ) then I say Federal's reply or any similar ones should be entered into the HOGWASH category. Rolling Eyes

Simply understand that in today's global economy, most if not all US ammo companies import foreign made load components at the lowest price for their economy grade ammo or simply outsource economy grade ammo production. Since virtually all domestic 16 ga ammo is considered to be economy grade, then we should already know that the ammo is most likely manufactured with foreign made industrial grade primers and other foreign made components.

In Winchester's case, this should be obvious. It says so right on the box--Made in Australia. I really doubt Olin is shipping US made 209 primers to the Aussies. And I really doubt the Aussies are spending top dollar to import US made 209 primers for manufacturing economy grade ammo under contract at the lowest bid for export back to the States.

So refusing to use those foreign made primers that best fit the hulls on hand or going through the effort of reshaping primer pockets by the thousands to do avoid using imported primers makes little to no sense to me. I for one can count the FTF's or misfires I've had over at least three decades all on one hand with a few fingers left over. My homemade ammo made with imported primers and other imported components has been breaking targets and dumping birds just fine for such a long time that why would I worry about it. Just ask yourselves how many misfires or FTFs have you've had which can be blamed squarely on an imported primer.

Like I've stated so often, anyone is entitled to do what they want in order to reload whatever ammo they want with whatever components they want to use. It's their time and money to spend. But this doesn't mean it's the smart or practical way to do it.

Get an accurate vernier caliper micrometer and use it. Then you'll know what's what. Easy peasy. Just sayin'. Wink
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:04 am  Reply with quote



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Today yes I can agree with so many off brand ammo manufacturers, the Italian made Winchester shells I bought was around 15 years ago when manufacturers weren't farming out that much compared to what they do today.
Take a look the only hint of it was extremely small Made In Italy on the side panel, the later Made in Australia 16 gauge shell box is on the left, Made in Italy on the right.
To me this is deceptive advertising, if I had wanted Fiocchi ammo I would have bought Fiocchi ammo, but I guess we accept things for what they are today.
[URL=http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/Joe_Speroni/media/IMG_0055_zps2genc277.jpg.html] [/URL]
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:56 am  Reply with quote
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16gawaterfowler,

I have a bunch of those hulls, I never had a problem with loose primers and I don't doubt that you have a batch with large primer pockets.

I have at least 8 reloads on those hulls and there is no indication that they are going to give up anytime soon. They were/are the best hulls I have ever reloaded.

I guess we need to pay attention to the hulls we reload now as they are constantly changing.

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oldhunter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:59 pm  Reply with quote
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Remington hulls is the only way to go. In any gauge.

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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 am  Reply with quote



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oldhunter wrote:
Remington hulls is the only way to go. In any gauge.

If it was 40 years ago I would agree however it's not, Remington's hulls for the most part are very good however because Remington hulls usually generate higher pressures than other types you can only do so much with high performance loads with them, especially Non Toxic loads such as steel or tungsten shot.
With 10 ga loads I can shoot 1675 fps 1 3/8 oz steel loads in Winchester hulls and still stay safe pressure wise with Remington's it tops out pressure wise around 1620 fps. Same goes for some 12 ga steel loads, I shoot one Winchester hull 12 ga 3" 1 1/8 oz load at 1750 fps, same load in the 3" Remington hull tops out at 1650 fps. 16 ga is the same, Federal or Winchester hulls I can get up to 1600 fps from steel shot loads, Remington's top out pressure wise at around 1475 fps.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:17 pm  Reply with quote
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There are Remington hulls and then there are Remington hulls. Some are very good, and some are plain junk.

Remington Premier/STS one piece compression formed hulls are still well made and are excellent for reloading in my experience. Even the compression formed Club and Sport Load hulls hold up pretty well for several reloadings, but they are getting harder and harder to find now since Remington has gone to polyformed hulls for some of their sport and hunting loads. The older 16 gauge RGL/Express polyformed hulls w/ a plastic base wad manufactured prior to 2005 are often good for three or more reloadings.

The RGL/Express hulls made after 2005 have continually deteriorated in quality to the point that they are pretty much junk by now. Some split at the hull mouth right out of the box. So maybe we'll get one reloading if we're lucky. Two reloadings is pushing the limit. Three is a miracle. Laughing

DC has a valid point regarding the 16 gauge Cheddite type hulls. They hold up far better than the latest RGL hulls and have a larger capacity useful for the heavier hunting loads. I'd be using more Cheddite hulls for all my loads including my target and light hunting loads if I didn't have a good supply of older RGL hulls and the R16 and SP16 wads to go with them.
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DanLee
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:21 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:

Remington Premier/STS one piece compression formed hulls are still well made and are excellent for reloading in my experience. Even the compression formed Club and Sport Load hulls hold up pretty well for several reloadings, but they are getting harder and harder to find now since Remington has gone to polyformed hulls for some of their sport and hunting loads.


Which Remington shells are you talking about? As far as I know, Remington NEVER made a one-piece 16-gauge hull. They also currently don't make any two-piece hulls in 12, 20, 28, and .410; all are unibody designs.

Dan
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