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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:57 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Feb 2017
Posts: 70
Location: Ohio

I picked up a Model 12 Winchester 16ga and a Ithaca Model 37 16 ga last sat at the local gun show for $400. So I'm pretty excited! I have a few questions regarding the Model 12. It's a Model 1912 which I know is the same thing. The serial # is 44xx that puts it in the first year of production. 1912- I thought only 20 ga was available till around 1914? I'm not a expert so any thoughts would b greatly appreciated. Both serial #'s match and it has I believe a 26 inch barrel. The choke is marked CYL. Any ideas what is up with this? I will post some pics in a few days. Will also post about the Model 37 Ithaca 16 ga also. Thanks
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RLR390
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:42 pm  Reply with quote



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Unless its been opened up, it is a short chamber gun.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:44 pm  Reply with quote
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Great ammo for the 1912 Win
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx


Last edited by skeettx on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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Thanks for the link on the ammo. Yes I am aware of the short chambers. What about that serial # though??? First year production 1912 16 ga? Thought it was only 20ga in 1912??
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16'er
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:21 pm  Reply with quote
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I think they used the model 1912 distinction for several years before switching to just model 12. It was in the teens, though. I have a 16ga marked 1912 as well.
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skeettx
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:26 pm  Reply with quote
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1912

Yours should be a 1913 model 1912

But 5308 was shown to be last made in 1912, so go figure Embarassed

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:33 pm  Reply with quote
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They made both 20 and 16 gauge from the get-go in 1912, and prototyped them together earlier. They are built on the same frame size, that's why. They introduced the 20 first because they already had a slide-action 16 in the Model 1897, but they were making the Model 1912 in 16 gauge in 1912. Chambers were originally 2 9/16 in the 16 and 2 1/2 in the 20. Barrel lengths on introduction were 26" (measure from closed breech bolt face to muzzle) on the 16, and 25" on the 20's. If your barrel is marked CYL, that is rather uncommon and adds to collectible value. Chokes available in those early years were FULL, MOD and CYL. There was no "IC" available then.

The 12 gauge was introduced in 1914. The models numbers of various Winchester guns had the introduction year in centuries dropped about late '20's early 30's -- I'd have to look it up to be sure, but that's the best I can recall. I think it was 1927 when the chambers of 16's and 20's were lengthened to 2 3/4". The 12 gauges were always 2 3/4". The 3" chamber was only offered in the 12 gauge (The Duck Gun -- available in all grades). The earliest 28's (mid '30's I think) had 2 7/8 inch chambers -- the standard length for the long 28 ga. shells in those days -- 2 1/2 was the standard short 28 gauge shell offered concurrently -- same situation as the 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 inch 20 gauge shells and 2 9/16 and 2 3/4 inch 16 ga shells etc. A short while later ater, the 28 chambers went to 2 3/4 -- basically after the cartridge companies got rid of the long and the short 28's and settled on 2 3/4". My opinion is that the 28 was mostly sold to a registered skeet shooting market, and even field loads did not vary much from the standard skeet load and the way to insure the skeet guys were not shooting some hopped up special was the take away the 2 7/8" shell. Still, they wanted the 3/4 ounce load, and it wasn't easy to get that into the 2 1/2 inch 28's of the day, but they could in a 2 3/4 inch hull. Nonetheless, I've never seen a 2 7/8 inch factory-loaded 28 gauge shell with more than 3/4 ounce of shot. Couldn't say for sure, but that's my take on it. Maybe it was just an across the board 2 3/4 inch mentality, but then how do you explain the persistence of the 2 1/2 and 3 inch .410's, and the 2 7/8 and 3 1/2 inch 10 gauge shells of the same era. The 28 was always a special little odd-ball, though. I digress.

Your early gun should have 13 rings around its forend wood -- that's the earliest style. Somewhere about '15 or '16, or maybe even 1914 the forend iron (the slide) was lengthened slightly and the wood had 14 rings. The 12 gauge action is a different size, so most parts are larger. Over time the slide of the 12's grew twice, so there were 3 different lengths of the metal slide, and many different forend wood styles -- Winchester would make anything custom once you got into the Trap grade -- you could order it from any dealer/hardware store! Field grade was a fixed standard. The next grade up in the earliest years was Tournament -- a standard configuration intended for trap (better wood, straight grip, high comb dimensions, zero pitch, solid rib, generally with 2 beads -- my early one only has only one bead!) -- only in 12 gauge, not the sub gauges. Trap grade was virtually the same as Tournament, except you got your choice of stock config and size, and a recoil pad of your choice -- any brand, and any bead config of your choice, and 12, 16 and 20 gauge depending on the year -- all these things generally included in the standard price. You could also get optional (price adders) various standard patterns of engraving. The red-orange Winchester-labled recoil pad we all know did not come out till 1927, if I recall correctly. After Trap grade came Pigeon Grade, with everything a Trap grade gun had plus standard engraving of your choice, the "Pigeon" mark, a better grade of wood, etc, in any gauge, 12, 16 or 20. Tournament grade was later replaced by Standard Trap grade -- sort of its equivalent. Later Winchester offered a Deluxe Field gun (not a grade), which was less deluxe than a Standard Trap Grade (Standard field dimensions, checkering, semi-beavertail forend and recoil pad, ventilated or solid rib optional) and available in 12, 16 and 20, and maybe 28 later. The first 28 ga. Model 12 came along mid '30's I think. After 1932 or so when skeet had been invented (1926) and became more popular, there was a Skeet Gun (not a grade) in all 4 gauges. It was the same luxury level and configuration as the Deluxe Field.

There is one more interesting feature your early gun should have, and I can never figure out just when it was discontinued -- All field grade Model 1912/Model12's have a rolled-in wavy matting pattern (same as on the solid ribs if you had one of those) on top of the receiver about 5/16" wide terminated in a little divot at the rear. The early guns had that matting placed right on the rounded top of the receiver. Somewhere about '14 or '15 Winchester started machining a shallow "track' into the top of the receivers, and placing the matting down in that scooped out track. I watch for this. Most Model 12 guys miss this feature entirely and are unaware of it. I don't think the Model 12 history books even mention it. Once you see it you will notice it right away -- you won't forget it. I have a first/second year 4 digit 16 gauge older than yours that has this feature. (You never really know the exact year end production by serial number, because some of the serial lists were from when the guns were put in inventory vs. when they were shipped to customers and dealers.) I have a first year 12 gauge Tournament Grade (a 1914 gun -- I am the second owner!), and it also has no top groove for the receiver matting. I think it looks great that way. My Tournament Grade is in restoration -- only the wood is left to do. Later Trap Grade guns from perhaps the late 30's and certainly up through the 60's had a wide strip (maybe 3/4 or 7/8 inch wide!) of that wavy matting that went all the way from the wood to the front end of the receiver where the receiver profile drops off just back of the barrel junction area. Those, of course, do not have the little divot in the back of the receiver top because the matting goes all the way back to the stock. I guess this was the trap guys' idea of an anti-glare surface. No Model 12's came with sand-blasted tops that I know of. If you have a sand-blasted receiver top, it was added later by some party other than Winchester. It might be possible that Simmons did that on some guns. Winchester sent plain barrel Deluxe Field and Skeet Guns to Simmons for ventilated rib installation. Some of those had the round base and doughnut base posts. Deluxe Field and Skeet guns seldom had the Winchester ventilated or solid ribs -- the ones with the square posts (3-pin or 2-pin) and the duck-bill reciever extensions. Those are mostly seen on Trap and Pigeon Grade Ventilated Rib guns. Some Standard Trap grade guns had ventilated ribs, but most had solid ribs like the predecessor to that grade, the Tournament grade. The Tournament Grade had only the solid matted rib -- never rib-less, and never a ventilated rib (they were actually made before Winchester offered ventilated ribs).

I highly recommend the books on the Model 12 by George Madis and Dave Riffle. They don't agree completely on years by serial number, but both contain a wealth of product history. Riffle's book has great pictures. George Madis, however "was there" with Winchester and offers lots of interesting insight that makes his book worthwhile and more entertaining. Model 12's are a lot of fun to shoot as well as study as a product. And what a product they were -- a quality tool, and a bridge from the era of relatively inexpensive skilled labor to an era of cheap materials, automation and relatively expensive labor. That's what spelled the end of the Model 12 and some others: Designs better suited to more automated manufacturing processes that could be cranked out for much less cost, yet with function and durability as good or better in some respects than the old ones -- A few other designs tried and failed to make market headway against the Model 12, but it took the Remington 870 to finally kill it, and nothing yet has killed the 870, really.
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jswanson
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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Location: Adirondak Mtns

FWIW, My model of 1912 #104133 was manufactured in 1915. Good gun and you seem to have gotten a great price.

JOe

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jswanson
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:36 am  Reply with quote



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[quote="jswanson"]FWIW, My model of 1912 #104133 was manufactured in 1915. Good gun and you seem to have gotten a great price.

JOe[/quote]

Sorry yes its a 16.

JS

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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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Location: Ohio

Thanks everyone! I will try 2 get some pics up here this weekend. I did manage 2 buy the Model 12 book last nite George Madis. I'm no expert on these. I also have 2 give this gun a good cleaning and try 2 remove a little rust it's not bad though so should come off easily. Also what should the top of the receiver look like? I assume u r talking about where it's sorta grooved? Does look different to me. My Dad had a Mid 50's Model 12 16ga and that didn't look like this. Once again thanks everyone. And I will get some pics up here. Just been working a ton of hours lately.
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manofthewoods
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:40 am  Reply with quote
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MaximumSmoke wrote:
They made both 20 and 16 gauge from the get-go in 1912, and prototyped them together earlier. They are built on the same frame size, that's why. They introduced the 20 first because they already had a slide-action 16 in the Model 1897, but they were making the Model 1912 in 16 gauge in 1912. Chambers were originally 2 9/16 in the 16 and 2 1/2 in the 20. Barrel lengths on introduction were 26" (measure from closed breech bolt face to muzzle) on the 16, and 25" on the 20's. If your barrel is marked CYL, that is rather uncommon and adds to collectible value. Chokes available in those early years were FULL, MOD and CYL. There was no "IC" available then.

The 12 gauge was introduced in 1914. The models numbers of various Winchester guns had the introduction year in centuries dropped about late '20's early 30's -- I'd have to look it up to be sure, but that's the best I can recall. I think it was 1927 when the chambers of 16's and 20's were lengthened to 2 3/4". The 12 gauges were always 2 3/4". The 3" chamber was only offered in the 12 gauge (The Duck Gun -- available in all grades). The earliest 28's (mid '30's I think) had 2 7/8 inch chambers -- the standard length for the long 28 ga. shells in those days -- 2 1/2 was the standard short 28 gauge shell offered concurrently -- same situation as the 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 inch 20 gauge shells and 2 9/16 and 2 3/4 inch 16 ga shells etc. A short while later ater, the 28 chambers went to 2 3/4 -- basically after the cartridge companies got rid of the long and the short 28's and settled on 2 3/4". My opinion is that the 28 was mostly sold to a registered skeet shooting market, and even field loads did not vary much from the standard skeet load and the way to insure the skeet guys were not shooting some hopped up special was the take away the 2 7/8" shell. Still, they wanted the 3/4 ounce load, and it wasn't easy to get that into the 2 1/2 inch 28's of the day, but they could in a 2 3/4 inch hull. Nonetheless, I've never seen a 2 7/8 inch factory-loaded 28 gauge shell with more than 3/4 ounce of shot. Couldn't say for sure, but that's my take on it. Maybe it was just an across the board 2 3/4 inch mentality, but then how do you explain the persistence of the 2 1/2 and 3 inch .410's, and the 2 7/8 and 3 1/2 inch 10 gauge shells of the same era. The 28 was always a special little odd-ball, though. I digress.

Your early gun should have 13 rings around its forend wood -- that's the earliest style. Somewhere about '15 or '16, or maybe even 1914 the forend iron (the slide) was lengthened slightly and the wood had 14 rings. The 12 gauge action is a different size, so most parts are larger. Over time the slide of the 12's grew twice, so there were 3 different lengths of the metal slide, and many different forend wood styles -- Winchester would make anything custom once you got into the Trap grade -- you could order it from any dealer/hardware store! Field grade was a fixed standard. The next grade up in the earliest years was Tournament -- a standard configuration intended for trap (better wood, straight grip, high comb dimensions, zero pitch, solid rib, generally with 2 beads -- my early one only has only one bead!) -- only in 12 gauge, not the sub gauges. Trap grade was virtually the same as Tournament, except you got your choice of stock config and size, and a recoil pad of your choice -- any brand, and any bead config of your choice, and 12, 16 and 20 gauge depending on the year -- all these things generally included in the standard price. You could also get optional (price adders) various standard patterns of engraving. The red-orange Winchester-labled recoil pad we all know did not come out till 1927, if I recall correctly. After Trap grade came Pigeon Grade, with everything a Trap grade gun had plus standard engraving of your choice, the "Pigeon" mark, a better grade of wood, etc, in any gauge, 12, 16 or 20. Tournament grade was later replaced by Standard Trap grade -- sort of its equivalent. Later Winchester offered a Deluxe Field gun (not a grade), which was less deluxe than a Standard Trap Grade (Standard field dimensions, checkering, semi-beavertail forend and recoil pad, ventilated or solid rib optional) and available in 12, 16 and 20, and maybe 28 later. The first 28 ga. Model 12 came along mid '30's I think. After 1932 or so when skeet had been invented (1926) and became more popular, there was a Skeet Gun (not a grade) in all 4 gauges. It was the same luxury level and configuration as the Deluxe Field.

There is one more interesting feature your early gun should have, and I can never figure out just when it was discontinued -- All field grade Model 1912/Model12's have a rolled-in wavy matting pattern (same as on the solid ribs if you had one of those) on top of the receiver about 5/16" wide terminated in a little divot at the rear. The early guns had that matting placed right on the rounded top of the receiver. Somewhere about '14 or '15 Winchester started machining a shallow "track' into the top of the receivers, and placing the matting down in that scooped out track. I watch for this. Most Model 12 guys miss this feature entirely and are unaware of it. I don't think the Model 12 history books even mention it. Once you see it you will notice it right away -- you won't forget it. I have a first/second year 4 digit 16 gauge older than yours that has this feature. (You never really know the exact year end production by serial number, because some of the serial lists were from when the guns were put in inventory vs. when they were shipped to customers and dealers.) I have a first year 12 gauge Tournament Grade (a 1914 gun -- I am the second owner!), and it also has no top groove for the receiver matting. I think it looks great that way. My Tournament Grade is in restoration -- only the wood is left to do. Later Trap Grade guns from perhaps the late 30's and certainly up through the 60's had a wide strip (maybe 3/4 or 7/8 inch wide!) of that wavy matting that went all the way from the wood to the front end of the receiver where the receiver profile drops off just back of the barrel junction area. Those, of course, do not have the little divot in the back of the receiver top because the matting goes all the way back to the stock. I guess this was the trap guys' idea of an anti-glare surface. No Model 12's came with sand-blasted tops that I know of. If you have a sand-blasted receiver top, it was added later by some party other than Winchester. It might be possible that Simmons did that on some guns. Winchester sent plain barrel Deluxe Field and Skeet Guns to Simmons for ventilated rib installation. Some of those had the round base and doughnut base posts. Deluxe Field and Skeet guns seldom had the Winchester ventilated or solid ribs -- the ones with the square posts (3-pin or 2-pin) and the duck-bill reciever extensions. Those are mostly seen on Trap and Pigeon Grade Ventilated Rib guns. Some Standard Trap grade guns had ventilated ribs, but most had solid ribs like the predecessor to that grade, the Tournament grade. The Tournament Grade had only the solid matted rib -- never rib-less, and never a ventilated rib (they were actually made before Winchester offered ventilated ribs).

I highly recommend the books on the Model 12 by George Madis and Dave Riffle. They don't agree completely on years by serial number, but both contain a wealth of product history. Riffle's book has great pictures. George Madis, however "was there" with Winchester and offers lots of interesting insight that makes his book worthwhile and more entertaining. Model 12's are a lot of fun to shoot as well as study as a product. And what a product they were -- a quality tool, and a bridge from the era of relatively inexpensive skilled labor to an era of cheap materials, automation and relatively expensive labor. That's what spelled the end of the Model 12 and some others: Designs better suited to more automated manufacturing processes that could be cranked out for much less cost, yet with function and durability as good or better in some respects than the old ones -- A few other designs tried and failed to make market headway against the Model 12, but it took the Remington 870 to finally kill it, and nothing yet has killed the 870, really.


excellent write up. I own the Maddis book (signed by author). I learned a few neat things from your info above.
A few years ago I couldn't resist a 16 M12 I found on the used rack at Cabelas in Reno. It looks so good I wonder if it's ever been fired more than a few dozen times. Circa 1920 with a solid rib + Full choke (wish it was Mod). Wood is real fence post material. Fore stock features 14 "rings." I inherited a 1924 12ga with a solid rib 32" barrel. Also fence post wood.

The 12ga is a tank compared to the 16ga.

Cheers,
keith Smile

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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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Here are a few pics is this what you meant the top of the receiver should look like?
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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:11 pm  Reply with quote



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Few more pics
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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:12 pm  Reply with quote



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Plymouth1968
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:13 pm  Reply with quote



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Defiantly needs cleaned has some rust... just have to find some time. Will get better photos on here also. Thanks
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