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mcrewz
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

I sent some loads off to Tom for testing and here are my results. As always your milage may vary shoot at your own risk.

OVER PRESSURE DO NOT SHOOT

16 GA 2 3/4"

Rio hull new
Rio Primer
43.0 gr Lilgun
PT1680 3 slits
437 gr Steel #3
6 point Crimp

1553. 12600
1576. 14300
1563. 13700
1559 13200
1581 14300

AVG 1566. 13620
EV. 28. 1700

Next load I backed of the powder 5 grains

Rio hull new
Rio Primer
38.0 gr Lilgun
PT1680 3 slits
437 gr Steel #3
6 point Crimp

1392. 10800
1401. 11100
1399. 11200
1370. 10000
1378. 10400

AVG 1387. 10700
EV. 31. 1200

Tom ran some numbers based off the high high and low low and thought that if I go up to 39.0 grains I should get somewhere around 1420 at 11300. I may sent in a 39 grain load but one of my MEC bushings drops 38.5 so I might just use that.

I was really hoping for mid to upper 1400s. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe I've read Rio primers are known to be on the hotter end of the spectrum after Fed209a and CCI209M. I may attempt a load or two using cheddite new hull/primer combo. What do you guys think.

Of note these loads were loaded in clear rio hulls and I sent a note with the shells for Tom to check for powder migration prior to shooting. Tom stated there was no migration.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Typical Ballistic Products load, they have the original recipe listed as 9400 psi not 13620.
Why you guys keep trusting their data is beyond me.
Your not going to get any better results with LiL Gun than you will with STEEL in the 16 gauge, no matter what the Dingbats at BPI claim. I've been shooting STEEL in the 16 gauge for close to 20 years now, killed a lot of ducks along the way to.
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:20 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

Thanks so much for your effort and $$ on this, mcrewz! All data points are interesting and useful, and there are so few in the 16ga that your time on this is really appreciated!

16gaWaterfowler/BT, I'm wondering what BPI load you're referencing? All my stuff shows the heaviest BPI 16ga steel load at 7/8oz, and their fastest two being loads
150619 6655
150619 6656

with LilGun, but still only 7/8oz? I don't see any 1oz loads from them at all for 16ga? My impression from talking to mcrewz is that he was extrapolating this interesting test load from those lighter 7/8oz loads too, not just retesting something published?

I have Advantages 8th, and also of course all the LOTW they've published... maybe you're looking at an older load I don't see, or their 16ga book? I'd like to have a complete resource for 16ga steel references, which it sounds maybe I don't, so your reply on this would be helpful!
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Dave In AZ wrote:
Thanks so much for your effort and $$ on this, mcrewz! All data points are interesting and useful, and there are so few in the 16ga that your time on this is really appreciated!

16gaWaterfowler/BT, I'm wondering what BPI load you're referencing? All my stuff shows the heaviest BPI 16ga steel load at 7/8oz, and their fastest two being loads
150619 6655
150619 6656

with LilGun, but still only 7/8oz? I don't see any 1oz loads from them at all for 16ga? My impression from talking to mcrewz is that he was extrapolating this interesting test load from those lighter 7/8oz loads too, not just retesting something published?

I have Advantages 8th, and also of course all the LOTW they've published... maybe you're looking at an older load I don't see, or their 16ga book? I'd like to have a complete resource for 16ga steel references, which it sounds maybe I don't, so your reply on this would be helpful!

What he did was take a 16 gauge ITX load and use steel shot instead with it
Even with the change in shot type, from what I've seen there's usually no more than 10-15% pressure difference if your using the same weight of shot. Even going with a 20% difference in pressure that would only be 11,280 psi. The original load IMO started out overpressure then adding steel shot just made things worse.
Loads in their Disaster of the Week section
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load15_08_14.htm
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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:20 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

That one recipe is a whole lot of Green Dot! Shocked Not familar with Lil Gun.
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Floppintom
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Posts: 24

What he did was take a 16 gauge ITX load and use steel shot instead with it
Even with the change in shot type, from what I've seen there's usually no more than 10-15% pressure difference if your using the same weight of shot. Even going with a 20% difference in pressure that would only be 11,280 psi. The original load IMO started out overpressure then adding steel shot just made things worse.
Loads in their Disaster of the Week section
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load15_08_14.htm[/quote]

Well an ounce of ITX and an ounce of steel shot don't come close to filling the same volume in a shot column so that was a miscalculation from the beginning. Friction with standard steel should be higher because it takes up so much area. The throw in a 7/8 vs 1 oz and the load is even farther off. Lil Gun allows for lower pressures over Alliant Steel because of the slower burn rate and will allow for heavier payloads within pressure limits.
I'm not backing BPI load data just saying it's an apples to oranges comparison in this case.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Floppintom wrote:
What he did was take a 16 gauge ITX load and use steel shot instead with it
Even with the change in shot type, from what I've seen there's usually no more than 10-15% pressure difference if your using the same weight of shot. Even going with a 20% difference in pressure that would only be 11,280 psi. The original load IMO started out overpressure then adding steel shot just made things worse.
Loads in their Disaster of the Week section
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load15_08_14.htm

Well an ounce of ITX and an ounce of steel shot don't come close to filling the same volume in a shot column so that was a miscalculation from the beginning. Friction with standard steel should be higher because it takes up so much area. The throw in a 7/8 vs 1 oz and the load is even farther off. Lil Gun allows for lower pressures over Alliant Steel because of the slower burn rate and will allow for heavier payloads within pressure limits.
I'm not backing BPI load data just saying it's an apples to oranges comparison in this case.

Main problem with Lil Gun is once you go up in bore size to a certain point you hit the law of diminishing returns with it vs STEEL, it works well in your smaller bores like the 20 and 28 but really there isn't much if any gain once you get up to 16 gauge. What he got for results with steel shot 1 ounce loads isn't to far off of what I got with STEEL and 1 ounce loads using 11 grains less powder, so where's the benefit of using Lil Gun for maybe a 25 -50 fps gain in velocity???? If I could gain 100 fps using Lil Gun I'd say yes it worth it, but really there's not much difference to me.
Your small bore TSS loads work well with LiL Gun and I agree the pressures between ITX and steel shot are different, but as I stated if the load was only 9400 psi to start with I don't see how Tom got over 13,000 psi with 1 ounce of steel shot.
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Bret
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Dec 2017
Posts: 87
Location: Northern Utah

I appreciate you working on this. A better steel load is what I am looking for also. 7/8 oz loads are okay but I would love to throw an ounce at late season mallards.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:31 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 1946
Location: Central CT

16GAwaterfowler,

The issue is not what Tom Armbrust found, because he is using industry standard equipment.

The issues here are trying to extrapolate data from ITX to steel. Using a powder that was never made for steel shot. Assuming data from BPI is correct. Someone else did the reloading and you have no idea what parameters were used.

Kinda like garbage in, garbage out and the biggest assumption is that there is anything consistent with shotshell ballistics.

This load is not the most well thought out.....the powder being the first poor choice.

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mcrewz
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:16 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

Anyone have any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, or tested loads with 1oz of steel going 1450 or faster?

Mike
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 348

I don't understand the negative comments about this test load at all, nor do I agree. These are two excellent data points, showing a bounding load-- one high pressure, one OK and slightly low. Both datapoints are in a completely blank, empty area of published data! ZERO other published datapoints exist at 1oz! The "best" published steel shot 16ga load is 7/8oz, there exist no other 1oz published loadings. Not only that, but this is a completely acceptable, functional 1oz load at 1387 fps, and is WELL within the published speeds for the lighter 7/8oz loads. It's not an anemic 16ga load at all, in fact the commercial 16ga steel loads are BOTH slower at 1350 and 1300 fps!

Here is the entire top end of published 16ga steel loads, down to anything that is faster than this load or the same speed, but notice they are all 7/8oz. Also notice that the top end of the speed spectrum is LilGun powder. Whether you absolutely believe BPI data or not, this is CLEARLY the only single published datapoint that exists for a 16ga load that shows an excess of speed that might be traded off for a heavier full 1oz payload-- 45 or 47gr of LilGun.

It is clearly the area to investigate. No one else is publishing an actual data report showing 1oz at 1450 or so! I published my results with A-steel powder, 410 gr payloads, 277 fps overpressure at 1476fps. Other anecdotal reports exist of faster 410gr or 1oz loads exist, but without any recipe or published pressure data or pressure sheet to corroborate and allow folks to load with trust. My results indicate an in-spec 410gr load with Asteel powder will be roughly 1450 fps--anyone looking to get a full 1oz clearly and obviously must look to the only single other existing datapoint, and that is LilGun from BPI.

In my opinion, Mike did an excellent job deciding on a load to send in and then sending a 2nd successful bounding load in. And he posted his results generously after spending his own money generously.

Making assumptions on what data he looked at and denigrating him for being willing and generous enough to attempt a test, is just a complete lack of gentlemanly behavior. Any reply to someone posting pressure results, let alone THE SINGLE BEST PUBLISHED (actually, with pressure data) STEEL 16ga LOAD IN THE UNIVERSE, that doesn't start with "Thank you very much", is somewhat ungracious IMO.

Here's the known 16ga loads:
150619 6655 16 2.75 Rio Rio209 Lil Gun 47.0 csd16 3 slits 7/8 382.8 Steel 10,400 1,635 FOLD #2 LOTW 15-08-14 LOTW
150619 6656 16 2.75 Rio Rio209 Lil Gun 45.0 csd16 3 slits 7/8 382.8 Steel 10,100 1,590 FOLD #2 LOTW 15-08-14 LOTW
50204 62FF Fiocchi Fio616 Steel 27.5 VP80/pt1680 os16 7/8 382.8 Steel y 10,700 1,560 FOLD #4 VP80 wadsheet
50204 621R MultiHull Ch209 Steel 27.5 VP80/pt1680 os16 7/8 382.8 Steel y 10,500 1,550 FOLD #4 VP80 wadsheet
60123 1099F Fiocchi Fio616 LongShot 23.0 VP80/pt1680 os16 7/8 382.8 Steel y 11,400 1,445 FOLD #B VP80 wadsheet
60123 1099 MultiHull Ch209 LongShot 23.0 VP80/pt1680 os16 7/8 382.8 Steel y 11,300 1,440 FOLD #B VP80 wadsheet
120210-6299 16 2.75 Cheddite Ch209 Steel 26.5 CSD16 7/8 382.8 Steel 10,500 1,435 Fold Steel #2 BPI
71113 128 MultiHull Ch209 LongShot 22.0 ob16 VP80/pt1680 7/8 382.8 Steel - 10,900 1,385 FOLD #4 VP80 wadsheet
60123 1101 MultiHull Ch209 BlueDot 30.0 VP80/pt1680 os16 7/8 382.8 Steel y 11,200 1,380 FOLD #B VP80 wadsheet
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 08 Aug 2011
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Location: Central CT

mcrewz,

Without knowing just where in the spectrum that the RIO primer lands, it is tough to say just what might happen if you use a Cheddite primer. If the Cheddite is a bit softer you can add a bit more Lil' Gun for more velocity. The only way to know is to actually test the Cheddite, RIO and Federal 209A primers and see where they land with this powder.

You have a consistent load with the RIO primer will it be a consistent with another primer? You would have to test that also.

I have two loads with Steel powder that will do what you want. One at 1400 FPS @ !0,500 PSI....another at 1491 FPS @ 10,700 PSI.

Here is the rub, they use the older CCI209M (when CCI actually made their own primers). They were built with a much older lot of Steel powder and they do not use a one piece wad. In other words they have to be retested and it takes a bit of time to put them together.

I can't tell you why no one has ever used Steel to get this job done....I developed these back in the 1990's, and if anything Steel will now give you more velocity at a lower pressure.

If you want the info I will post it.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 08 Aug 2011
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The reason I never posted these loads was, they are very hands on when loading them and I hate steel shot and found that for my uses Bismuth was a better choice. The other reason is that the max size steel would be #2 or #3, because of pellet rub through.

I basically gave up on them.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:15 pm  Reply with quote
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To mcrewz & DaveinAZ,

I kinda got carried away with my thoughts because Tom Armbrust is an old friend and a VERY good man and very good at what he does. When 16GAwaterfowler questioned Tom's results .......I was offended.

I get upset when someone questions Mr. Armbrust's findings, and not those imposters who parade themselves as THE AUTHORITY and present us with ridiculous loads that have never been tested.

I did not mean to denigrate mcrewz's work and I apologize to all that I have offended.

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mcrewz
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

Dogchaser, I would really appreciate the info on the loads you developed back in the 1990s. If you don't want to post publicly please PM.

I do not know Tom personally, only on a customer level. But I can tell you he is more than stand up guy. He is prompt, helpful, insightful, with a plethora of knowledge and experience. He always calls the same day with the test results and with advice on what to do if the load needs some improvement.

As far as switching primers, I realize the only way to really know is to get it tested. Tom wrote a great piece on primers and primer substitution. It is definitely worth a read. http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Curiosity usually gets the best of me and I suppose thats why I send loads off to get tested. I realize the 7/8 of 15/16 loads out there will do what I need them to do, but why not try for a 1oz load.
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