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NY16ga
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:18 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

OK, I'm hoping you all have some guidance for me on a 16ga SxS purchase I'm planning. Right now my gun fund is $1400 and I'd like to get a straight grip BLNE, lighter is better and I don't care about the chokes since I'll likely send the barrels off to Mike Orlen for some work anyway. I'd probably be willing to live with a POW grip if the gun had all of these other characteristics.

I have a Fox Sterlingworth that I love but the additional drop has always been a challenge for me so I'm probably not looking at classic American guns. I'd love to find a used Ugartechea or a plain jane English gun but it seems like both of those are a long shot these days, especially in my price range.

I think that just leaves continental guns so I've been looking at Simsons and Sauers. It looks like there are plenty of 16s, a few with a straight grip, and they're generally both sturdy and relatively light. I've never done any wingshooting with a cheekpiece though so not sure if that's something that takes adjustment. I've been looking at various French guns too. There's definitely more idiosyncrasies in these guns but it seems like there's nice ones to be had for a reasonable price. I just don't have much experience with them though.

What do you think, 16ga'ers? Is there some option I missed? If I go with a continental gun, is there anything I should watch out for?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

NY16ga,

In your price range I would definitely be looking for a J.P Sauer double gun. The cheek piece is not a big deal, in fact IMO it makes the double gun easier to mount and shoot. In the SSM there are usually some nice sales adds to choose form, I picked up a J.P Sauer Best Pre War German, 16 Gauge Double Grouse Gun from one of the well known dealers just recently. These guns have real nice wood and the super high grade Krupp Barrels. Remember however most of these good Pre War J.P Sauer double guns are chambered for 2 1/2 shells, this is not a problem any longer with the Poly SpredR's and the RST shells being readily available.

My late 1800's J.P. Sauer Grouse gun, is serious stuff, the frame size is more like a 20 Gauge than a 16. DT, light in weight, well balanced, and comes around incredibly well when shooting flying. After hurting Grouse and Woodcock for 2 seasons I have decided to remove the modern recoil pad and re-install an original Sauer Butt Plate, returning the gun to it's original state. Further I am seriously considering the purchase of a Pre War J.P Sauer Drilling, I like my Grouse gun so much.

Pine Creek/Dave

My 16 Gauge J.P Sauer Best Double Gun.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54317_800x600/] [/URL]

There is another option however.

In some areas out west you can still pick up a real nice L.C. Smith 16 Gauge Field Grade, or if you are real lucky a Pre 13, OO. Some of these old guns were special ordered and have very little drop, and good LOP also. $1,400 just might get you into a real nice Elsie double gun, if you search around for a while.

A 1913 L.C. Smith 16 Gauge Field Grade with Krupp high Grade Barrels, DT and French Walnut Wood

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54320_800x600/] [/URL]


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Mon May 28, 2018 10:30 am; edited 8 times in total

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gjw
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 863
Location: NoDak

Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
NY16ga,

In your price range I would definitely be looking for a J.P Sauer double gun. The cheek piece is not big deal, in fact IMO it makes the double gun easier to mount and shoot. In the SSM there are usually some nice sales adds to choose form, I picked up a J.P Sauer Best Pre War German, 16 Gauge Double Gun from one of the well known dealers just recently. Remember however most of these good J.P Sauer double guns are chambered for 2 1/2 shells, this is not a problem any longer with the Poly SpredR's and the RST shells being readily available.

My late 1800's J.P. Sauer Grouse gun, is serious stuff, the farm is more like a 20 Gauge than a 16, light, well balanced and come around well when shooting flying. I am seriously considering the purchase of a Pre War J.P Sauer Drilling I like my Grouse gun so much.

Pine Creek/Dave


+1 and very well said. German guns are very well made, have good wall thickness, so bbl work shouldn't be a problem. Any of the German makers would serve you well.

Best,

Greg

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jschultz
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:44 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 1624
Location: northwewst Wyoming

I'm not sure what a used AyA box lock or side lock is going for, but since 2006 I have been very happy with my 16 Ga.#2 AyA. The gun is choked Imp. Cyl. & Mod. The chokes coupled with my brass hull reloads have handles all of the bird hunting needs that I have.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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J,

Beautiful AYA #2 Gun, going to be real hard today to find a #2 AYA Gun in his price range however, even the box lock.

Pine Creek/Dave

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NY16ga
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful. I'm definitely taking a close look at some JP Sauers, especially after seeing that photo of Pine Creek/Dave's. Nice gun!

jschultz, that's a beautiful #2 but unfortunately they're way out of my price range for now. If I had a few thousand more in the gun fund I'd definitely be looking at an AyA though, probably a 4/53.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:54 am  Reply with quote
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check out Dickinson Arms. Google it to find their site. I think they are a real value. There are some on GB standard specs run $1500.00

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16'er
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:13 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Tappahannock, Virginia

French guns in basic grades would be a place to start looking. Robust model at Cabelas Gun Library, Reference #: 6160334. might be a bit high on price, but they have bee pricing right at a grand for a while. French and German 'Guild' guns are always an option.

Also consider a A&F or vL&D 'knockabout' boxlock.
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:01 pm  Reply with quote
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Pm sent.

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NY16ga
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

Thanks byrdog, I've been doing some research on those Dickinson guns lately. They're pretty interesting and it seems like they've sort of filled the gap left by Ugartechea (LC Supply is even carrying them now) I'm on the fence about them though and I can't explain why. They seem a little on the heavier side but certainly not heavy and the choke tubes would be an advantage. I don't know, maybe its because I've never handled one so I'll have to do something about that...
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16'er
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:44 pm  Reply with quote
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I’ve never noticed a difference in feel or results from a stock that has a cheek piece vs one without, given dimensions are the same. Fir the minimal weight gain, I don’t see a disadvantage to considering a gun with one.

Might find a Ithaca NID in that price range with modern drop measurements. Will take some patience though.
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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:11 pm  Reply with quote
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I have two Dickinsons . A 16 and a 28 I love the way they handle and they are all NEW. not used not used up not 100 years old, new and they work like New.

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rkittine
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Sep 2014
Posts: 419

Where in New York are you? I had a 16 gauge CZ Ringneck, which had a POW grip. It was OK once the triggers were worked on. Now they have the Sharptail (I really like my 28 gauge), which does not have screw in chokes like the other 3 gauges (Nor the .410,) but it has a pistol grip stock. I love my SKB, but not available in 16 gauge.

I had a problem with an order through the Dickinson Custom shop and finally got my money back. I had it spec'ed out exactly the way I wanted it, but after 7 months, the order was at least still 7 months behind so I canceled and got my money back.

One of the guys here pointed me toward a Rizzini. Mine is 16 gauge, single trigger, straight stock with screw in chokes. I love it.

If you are near one of my places in New York (Long island or Manhattan - and I spend a lot of time in Rockland and Orange counties and can fly up to Dutchess etc. easily as I have a light plane) , I would be happy to meet you and let you try it and shoot it. No sure of all the stock dimensions, but a Call to John Boyd of Quality Arms in Houston should get you those as well as if he has any used ones in stock. I paid $1,940.00 for mine shipped, but if you are going to add Mike Orlon Chokes, factor that in and if not, make sure you check with Mike since he does not do Thin Walls and if needed, then it will be Briley, which will bring your cost up to more than a New Rizzini.

Bob

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

16ga,

IMO the Dickinson guns are a good purchase, however for the money expended the J.P Sauer 16 double gun, is very hard to match or beat, unless you are looking at an old L.C. Smith Pre 1913 double gun.

The reason you can purchase a fine J.P Sauer double gun in your price range is the Nazi stigma. Both Krupp and J.P. Sauer supplied the Nazi's with weapons and steel during WWII, and the Americans and and the Brits had more than a big problem with these German Companies that helped the Nazi war effort. The WWII Stigma still remain for some people even today.

In reality this in fact has a great deal to due with actually acquiring a fine double gun in todays world, for a more than a reasonable price. J.P Sauer Pre War double guns, were made with the finest metals and quality workmanship. Krupp Barrels were the very best in the world in that era, probably still are even today.

L.C. Smith & LeFever purchased Krupp Barrels for their top Graded Double Guns prior to WWII and later L.C. Smith acquired Krupp's exacting metallurgical Engineering to produce their own Barrels, in foundries here in the USA.

For the money you have to expend, you will probably not be able to purchase a similar quality double gun. The difference in Quality and Workmanship between the new modern guns in your price range, and most times in any price range, and the old J.P Sauer double guns is so great, that there is actually no relevant comparison in the guns.

Good luck with your purchase, choose wisely when you purchase.

Pine Creek/Dave

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steve f
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 147
Location: N. Georgia

I was going to suggest the Oschatz 16ga ejector gun at Mark's Born Again Bird Guns as an example of a high quality gun for not a lot of money. There are a lot of vintage German guns without the name recognition of a Sauer or Merkel that are still very well made. I think that Oschatz dates from 1912-1922, and field grade guns with ejectors from that time period are kind of rare, especially one in such nice shape. Keep your eyes open, you can score a solid German gun for a reasonable price.


Last edited by steve f on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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