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16gunner
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2017
Posts: 10
Location: Parker, CO

In the mid 70's I bought a Ronchard Cifron SxS from a friend. I shot 4-5 boxes of our shells dove hunting in CO. I went to work part time in a gun shop. The owner was a gunsmith. He had a 16 ga. chamber gauge and found the gun had short chambers. The were no bulges and the gun worked perfectly and I sold last year. Shooters believe if a 2 3/4" fits the chamber and it will, it is safe to shoot. It is. A 2 3/4" shell attains that dimension before it is loaded and after firing. That is why it fits in short chambers. Do not worry about excess pressure firing our shells in short chambers. The pressure does not exceed proof pressure loads required in Europe. All our gun makers fire every gun before sending it on with normal hunting loads. It is done to make sure every thing works as designed. So, next time you see a short chamber gun you like, buy it. You do not need to have it lengthen. But, that is how gunsmiths make money!!!


Last edited by 16gunner on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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JNW
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

This topic has been discussed, debated and argued over in the shooting press since at least the 1930s. Here’s a thread from DGS that has lots of interesting links. Enjoy.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35050&page=1

Jeff
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Byron Whitlock
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 488
Location: Oswego, Kansas

I recently bought a 20ga LC Smith that is a sweet little gun but when I took out to shoot some clays I found the 23/4 hulls were hard to pull out of the chambers after shooting. Luckily I had my pliers handy. I completed shooting the round of clays but then took the gun to my local gunsmith and had the 21/2" chambers opened up to 23/4 and all is well now.
The gun was made in 1925 when the Smith guns in 16 and 20ga had short chambers but are well made guns. It may have been safe to shoot the regular length shells but it was a pain removing them.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Bryon Whitlock,

I recommend you try the Poly or RST 2 1/2 SpredR loads for your vintage L.C.Smith, I use them all the time, especially in my pre 13 L.C. Smith and J.P.Sauer bird guns. The 2 3/4 shells will work, however the 2 1/2" shells were engineered for these particular double guns.

Great shells especially for Grouse and Woodcock hunting!

Pine Creek/Dave
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

There is a lot more involved in pressure produced by a round of ammunition than how long the round is.

There is a lot more to proof in Europe than how long the chambers are.

If you feel comfortable uncorking a 2 3/4" SAAMI spec 1 1/4 oz US round in a between the wars English gun that passed 1 1/8 oz, 2 1/2 chamber proof at .018 muzzle wall on both barrels, you may feel free to do so.

But, I wouldn't.


Best,
Ted

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Byron Whitlock
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 488
Location: Oswego, Kansas

Pine creek Dave... I was aware of the 21/2" shells available but lengthening the chambers was not an issue and it allows me to use more available ammo.
I do not plan on shooting any thing heavier than 7/8oz loads since the gun is so light and if I need more than that my 16's will handle it.
Your misspelling of my name is common among people that don't pay close attention. Shocked

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

Short version: you can put modern 2 3/4 shells through a 2 1/2 inch chambered gun, but there are better ideas. This, because:

1. modern 2 3/4 shells - promo loads from the big manufacturers - put out pressures close to the SAAMI maximum so as to be able to cycle autoloaders correctly;
2. SAAMI maximum pressures may, or may not, be safe in your old gun's barrels because no one really knows how much steel is left in them after leaving the factory 75+ years ago and having 75+ years of who-knows-what done to them (e.g., [non-]maintenance, honing, choke opening, yadda yadda all the things people do to barrels;
3. REGARDLESS OF PRESSURE, using 2 3/4 shells in a 2 1/2 inch chamber WILL cause extra recoil. This will result in 3 things: beating up the shooter (relatively unimportant - not likely to cause permanent damage), beating up on the action (loosening up the gun - moderately important) beating up on the head of the stock (relatively important - very likely to cause permanent damage). If you think beating up on 75+ y/o wood is a good idea, go price out getting a new stock made for a sxs, Then come back and tell us how good an idea it remains. A new stock from scratch (by someone who has a clue) will go somewhere north of $2k, exclusive of the wood. Probably more by now - those quotes were 3 yr ago.

You can do it, but in the longer term you're writing checks which can't be covered.

My 20 ga Trojan was - to all appearances - used by someone as their regular skeet gun. One can run 2 3/4 shells through its 2 1/2 inch chambers - I did for the first 2 rounds of trap until a funny sense of "flexibility" said something was wrong. I'm sure the prior owner put a lot of 2 3/4 through it. The head of the stock needed to be pinned. To be fair, a restock was the prescription two good stockmakers gave me, but both recognized restocking would cost more than the gun is worth.

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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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Location: Ontario

Thanks Dave and Ted for posting what should be obvious. Blanket statements about old guns just don’t work, unless the blanket statement is “do what works for this particular gun”.

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fin2feather
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:27 am  Reply with quote
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I shoot mostly RST and Polywad shells in my guns, but I do occasionally shoot some 2-3/4" shells when hunting. I try to keep them around or below 1200fps and as long as I do that I don't worry much about it. I wouldn't necessarily go to the range and shoot a hundred consecutive rounds of 'em though Shocked !

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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fin2feather,

Lots of sportsman have been doing the same as you for years without hurting their L.C. Smith double guns. However with the advent of the new 2 1/2" SpredR shells I have been using them in both my pre 13 L.C. Smith guns and my 1889 J.P Sauer 16 also.

Both the Poly & the RST are sweet shooting shells and work well with the chokes on my older double guns. Great shells for Grouse, Woodcock and Quail hunting. Love the way they work out of my old Hammer Guns for sure.

Pine Creek/Dave

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:20 pm  Reply with quote
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The recoil issue on old actions and old wood is the main reason I use short shells in short chambers. As someone who works on stocks every month, cracks through the tang and checkering are not easy to fix, and can often be avoided by using the right loads for the gun.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:07 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Uncle Dan Fan,

I agree the best thing you can do for your gun, no matter the maker is to use the correct size shells the double gun was engineered to accept.

Many people do not understand that some of the old Classic American double guns were engineered for 2 1/2" shells, many owners have used 2 3/4" shells in these guns for hunting for numerous years, putting abnormal stress on their guns. The best thing an owner can do for the longevity of his double gun is use the correct size shells, clean, oil and store their guns correctly.

Lots of owners now elongate the chambers to accept 2 3/4" shells, eliminating any problems that might occur. I rolled my own shells for many years, now with the RST & Poly SpredR's sized correctly at 2 1/2", there is little need to elongate the original Chambers or widen the Chokes on these classic shotguns. I even got rid of my Mec Loader because of these nice 2 1/2" SpredR shells.

The only draw back to the newer RST & Poly SpredR shells is the cost. Specialty shells like these are going to cost more money, however getting rid of the Mec loader was worth the extra cost for me. Eliminate the problem of finding the SpredR's by purchasing form Lion County Supply on line, get free shipping right to your front door. I have them shipped to the back woods Log cabin in Potter County, Pa every year now.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:53 pm  Reply with quote
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T
Quote:
The only draw back to the newer RST & Poly SpredR shells is the cost.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man[/quote]

Yep. This is why I had the chambers lengthened on my Husqvarna 100 hammer gun. I reload 2.5", roll crimp, etc., but I like being able to just buy whatever load I want to shoot in it, without the hassle. That said, I've also glass bedded the action to the wood, as small framed 16's don't have much wood surface area to absorb recoil.

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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Location: Western WA

Quote:
The only draw back to the newer RST & Poly SpredR shells is the cost.

Come on folks, that's just not the case anymore. Check Cabelas prices on decent
hunting rounds (not the low grade Herters which won't ever be found in my hunting vest) and you will find high quality RST 2 1/2" hunting rounds to be the same or LESS than Remington Express, Win Super-X, Browning, and Fiocchi Golden Pheasant.

Quit complaining about the cost of 16 ga ammo...its a specialty item anywhere...open up your wallets and spend some of those hard earned dollars on decent ammo for your great 2 1/2"guns!

B.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Brewester11,

Are you finding 2 1/2" RST and Poly SpredR's on the shelf at Cabelas, or on line?
If you are purchasing these shells at a decent price as you say, I definitely need to check this out.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith man

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